My thoughts on homosexaulity

[Tempest Storm]

Originally posted by Jaden
However i feel its wrong, and i can provide alot of clickable links to Bible references and testimonies of people who i feel are knowledgeable on the subject .

So can I. I'm not questioning the Bible's stance on gays.

But, from my perspective, science>faith.

No offense Tempest but ur argument is limmited to the world's perspective. and its the most damned easy and predictable argument ive ever heard...

Hun, it is never, ever easy arguing with Christians. Trust me. It like running obsticle course. And it's nearly impossible to argue against their faith. No matter how hard you shatter their arguements, or how much evidence you provide, they will simply dismiss it and choose to wollow in their ignorance. Because of faith. Stupidity can be excused. Ignorance can be enlightened. But faith is blind.

Just because Christians disagree with something does not make them ignorant. i make no excuse for people who attack homosexuals but i don't think taking a stand against the act rather than the person is wrong. You say that science is more 'real' than 'God' i disagree and thats where my perspective comes from. it would be incredibly arrogant of you to deny his existance or my perspective.

They aren't ignorant because they disagree with me. They're ignorant because they're opinions aren't based on anything solid. Now when I say they, I'm refering to ppl like DR, and ppl who would seek to discriminate or limit the freedoms of gays. Science has states time and time again that they are wrong. As does logic, and just basic common sence (which these ppl lack). Yet they continue to trust an outdated book over a mountain of hard evidence and fact. Some look to falsify evidence.

This is why the only arguements against homosexuality are religious. And in a debate, religion, since it has never been, and can not be proven, is irrelivant.

It's arrogant of me to deny the existence of something that I have seen no proof for? Yet, you deny the possibility that you might be wrong about your beliefs? Look in the mirror before you call ppl things.

 

[Steven22]

What is this fool Daterape still doing trying to still argue a lost cause?

 

[Jaden]

Originally posted by Spike~

Hun, it is never, ever easy arguing with Christians. Trust me. It like running obsticle course. And it's nearly impossible to argue against their faith. No matter how hard you shatter their arguements, or how much evidence you provide, they will simply dismiss it and choose to wollow in their ignorance. Because of faith. Stupidity can be excused. Ignorance can be enlightened. But faith is blind.

The point im trying to make is that though you think you are shattering their arguments you aren't. You are from Your point of view but not in the general scheme of things. This is exactly what im talking about faith does not equal ignorance. When i said it was arrogant of you im saying that for you as a human to say that there is no possibility for anything greater than us in the entire universe and beyond. The point is that believing in something and denying some aspects of excessively subjective scientific research does not make people blind or ignorant. No more than your assumptions make you anyway. it may be hard for you to argue with Christians as they argue on a different level. but ur arguments are easy to find. and they are definately predictable. The point im trying to make is that your 'evidence' is not true to me at all becasue i have seen things which contradict it. I HAVE had evidence.. not asking you to believe it. but i have you can in no way call me ignorant when YOU are ignorant of my circumstances and experiences.

I understand.. well hope.. that ur not necessarily meaning me and also hope you don't compare me to daterape.. i will be severely dissapointed if you do


This is why the only arguements against homosexuality are religious. And in a debate, religion, since it has never been, and can not be proven, is irrelivant.

I honestly don't feel alot of your 'scientific research' can be proven either.

It's arrogant of me to deny the existence of something that I have seen no proof for? Yet, you deny the possibility that you might be wrong about your beliefs? Look in the mirror before you call ppl things.

i completely accept the possibility that i may be wrong.. in fact i welcome it. trust me i spend a good deal of time 'looking in the mirror' but thankyou for bringing it up

 

[Tempest Storm]

The point im trying to make is that though you think you are shattering their arguments you aren't. You are from Your point of view but not in the general scheme of things. This is exactly what im talking about faith does not equal ignorance. When i said it was arrogant of you im saying that for you as a human to say that there is no possibility for anything greater than us in the entire universe and beyond. The point is that believing in something and denying some aspects of excessively subjective scientific research does not make people blind or ignorant. No more than your assumptions make you anyway. it may be hard for you to argue with Christians as they argue on a different level. but ur arguments are easy to find. and they are definately predictable. The point im trying to make is that your 'evidence' is not true to me at all becasue i have seen things which contradict it. I HAVE had evidence.. not asking you to believe it. but i have you can in no way call me ignorant when YOU are ignorant of my circumstances and experiences.

No, faith does equal ignorance. Take Creationism for example. There is mountains of evidence for Evolution, and against Creationism. But creationist regularly claim that there is no evidence for evolution. Even when confronted with it, then claim it's not true and stick to Creationism. That is faith, and that is ignorance.

First off, I'm Diest, I embrace that possibility. And besides, isn't just as arrogent, if not more, to claim that there is a God? Even though there is no proof for it.

These are not subjective results. They are conclusive and accurate, and have been proven time and time again. And ignoring that does make one blind and ignorant. And my "assumption" have solid evidence backing it up, as I showed before.

If you call what they do arguing, then yea. And my arguements are no more predicable than yours.

Well, if you choose to argue circumstance and experiences over science and reason, that's your objective. Science is unbiased, objective, circumstance and experiences are not.

No matter how hard you shatter their arguements, or how much evidence you provide, they will simply dismiss it and choose to wollow in their ignorance. Because of faith. Stupidity can be excused. Ignorance can be enlightened. But faith is blind.

I understand.. well hope.. that ur not necessarily meaning me and also hope you don't compare me to daterape.. i will be severely dissapointed if you do

/quote]

Oh no, you're a bit better than that nutjob.

I honestly don't feel alot of your 'scientific research' can be proven either.

It wouldn't be sceince if it couldn't be proven.

i completely accept the possibility that i may be wrong.. in fact i welcome it. trust me i spend a good deal of time 'looking in the mirror' but thankyou for bringing it up

You don't really act like it.

 

[Jaden]

haha well all i can say is that you don't really listen and just repeat yourself. as do i.. so i guess we will agree to disagree. Though i honestly don't know how you can believe that science is fact. look at the way it changes. it is constantly progressing. Science is what excused racial hatred towards those of a darker skin. People in that time period believed it (i know religion had a huge part to play in this aswel) and now we see that
scientific "unbias" 'FACT' as a load of crap. What makes you think that evolution is different? i believe in evolution. just not in the same context or way you do... i accept alot of your scientific facts as fact. i just don't agree on the parts i find subjective and dodgy... and there are alot of parts that really make me question the validity of the information because it completely defies logic.... as u say Christianity does... though because i have not personally experienced 'science' i can't believe it.

The most likely reason as to my appearing as if i don't look in the mirror is because some of the time i do accept things based on faith, and also because just because i look doesn't mean im going to see it from your perspective.

c9h13no3


...just shut up...

 

[Flag]

Science: A careful, disciplined, logical search for knowledge about any and all aspects of the universe, obtained by examination of the best available evidence and always subject to correction and improvement upon discovery of better evidence.

Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, often dogmatic.

I personally would choose science over faith anyday but that's just me. You're welcome to your opinion.

Though i honestly don't know how you can believe that science is fact. look at the way it changes. it is constantly progressing. Science is what excused racial hatred towards those of a darker skin. People in that time period believed it (i know religion had a huge part to play in this aswel) and now we see that
scientific "unbias" 'FACT' as a load of crap.

Hmm, do keep in mind Science is not any type of establishment or set of beliefs. Claiming science contradicts itself doesn't really work. People can think on total opposite sides of an issue and still be using the scientific method; where as most religions are dogmatic. That aside, I'm curious as to what example you're drawing on as science excusing racial hatred? I often see people point to Hitler yet few know he was a Christian and believed he was doing the "Lord's work" by killing the Jews just like the Crusaders did a thousand years earlier.

Again though, science is not a uniform set of beliefs. One could attempt to use science to prove racial superiority just as they might use science to disprove racial superiority. In this way Science is unbiased, as it is not any type of dogmatic belief system.

Cheers

 

[Tempest Storm]

Originally posted by Jaden
Though i honestly don't know how you can believe that science is fact. look at the way it changes. it is constantly progressing.

That's the key. It progresses. We find out more and more as we discover new evidence. Each new bit of evidence increases our understanding and knowledge. As opposed to faith, which, has nothing solid to back it up.

I don't really see how you can rag on me for believing in science. Science isn't perfect, true, but faith is nothing more than denial, with nothing but circumstance and personal evidence. It's a lot like those nutjobs claiming they were abducted by aliens even though there is no proof, and they were drunk the night they got "abducted".

Science is what excused racial hatred towards those of a darker skin. People in that time period believed it (i know religion had a huge part to play in this aswel) and now we see that
scientific "unbias" 'FACT' as a load of crap.

Religious ppl uses snipets of science, taken out of context and distorted, to justify their hate, much as they have tried to do with homosexuality. Science is neutral, it's the ppl that use science who aren't.

What makes you think that evolution is different? i believe in evolution. just not in the same context or way you do...

Despite the fact that there is mountains of evidence for it? If physical creation is so true, then why is there much more proof for evolution than Creationism?

i accept alot of your scientific facts as fact. i just don't agree on the parts i find subjective and dodgy... and there are alot of parts that really make me question the validity of the information because it completely defies logic.... as u say Christianity does... though because i have not personally experienced 'science' i can't believe it.

And what parts might that be? The ones that fly in the face of your faith?

And uh, exactly what was your arguement against homosexuality again? I kinda forgot, with all this science v. faith shit.

And respond to my pm!

And C9, you've made your opinions quite clear. You don't like the thread, great, don't look in it. I'm not going to close just on your whim. Get used to it. So either provide something to the discussion, or don't post, unless you wanna be warned for spamming? And I'm kinda eager to play around with the new warning system.

 

[MacMan]

He's a mod, your powers are useless against him!!
I'm jumping in late, but I agree with everything Spike posted. Maybe I should take the time to read the first page?
Maybe...

 

[Jaden]

hahaha all i can say is *sigh - oh dear* haha i agree with your scientific *method* flag. i think that really does describe science. it is progressing but you can also look at faith and religion with this method .. and it does fit in. Bear in mind that that is only one definition of faith. i could define science any way i wanted then disagree with it.. it doens't mean i would be right.

I agree completely that it is not an established set of facts this is why im hesitant to place so much faith in it and to declare every new idea as a *fact* in my arguments. My only problem with science is the way different people interpret it and use it as *Fact* in their arguments when alot of it is clearly not.. and still in development stages. as it will alwasy be.

Lol and no tempest i don't deny the scientifc facts that fly in the way of my faith i deny the ones that defy my logic, reasoning, and life experiences... if i told you there was no such thing as gravity and that science *proved* this but you knew by experience that if you jump you will fall etc... you would tell me i was dumb. in the same way i have experienced God without any doubt several times and so i can't deny him just because you say *science says..* but likewise im not expecting you to believe it. science is important but i don't think you can believe it if it goes against what you see, hear, feel.


sorry babe i didn't know you had Pm'd me

 

[Tempest Storm]

Origninally posted by C9
Discussion? Where? 11 Pages back?

And lastly, warn away, I care not.

Hehe, since when did they make you a mod?

I may not be able to warn you myself, but I don't think Amantis will be to happy you've been trying to drive this thread of topic and spamming in it.

And just for safe measure, I've split your posts from this thread to the Locker.

Do not post in this thread again unless you are going to add something useful to the discussion, or whatever you choose to call it. Got it?

 

[sonicboom]

i know thisis off topic and totally not called forbut.
i though there was all ready a michal jackson thread..lol


i have no problem with gay people i ave several gay friend's.but i am not gay any one here that know's me know's that.i just say keep teh talk about well how to say your encounter's to yourse;f and other gay people i dont wanna hear that.

 

[Jaden]

hmmmm well that in itself is discrimination.. if one of your gay friends came up to you and wanted to tell you about his new hot boy friend and how they got it on the night before you wouldn't want to heare. before i judge you would u listen to your friend talk about the hot chic he got with the night before?

 

[Flag]

Originally posted by Jaden
hmmmm well that in itself is discrimination.. if one of your gay friends came up to you and wanted to tell you about his new hot boy friend and how they got it on the night before you wouldn't want to heare. before i judge you would u listen to your friend talk about the hot chic he got with the night before?

Don't see how that is discrimination. It is a personal preference to not enjoy hearing about homosexual encounters.

It's like saying my girlfriend is discriminating against me because she doesn't want to hear me talk about my past girlfriends.

It really has nothing to do with discrimination.

haha i agree with your scientific *method* flag. i think that really does describe science. it is progressing but you can also look at faith and religion with this method

How? You can't prove or disprove negatives.

If I told you the sun was going to blow up tommorow at 2:32 PM and I based this on an ancient book I found in my backyard you would say it won't happen. Do you know for sure? Let's say you use the scientific method and find that the probability of the Sun blowing up tommorow at the exact moment I say is so astronomically low not even your computer can hold the number. Because it is so astronomically low a scientist would say "No, it won't happen."

Does he/she know for fact? No, it is a negative argument. "There is a God", is another example of a negative argument. You can't prove or disprove those type of things as "fact", however you can say it's extremely unlikely to the point it almost is fact.

I agree completely that it is not an established set of facts this is why im hesitant to place so much faith in it and to declare every new idea as a *fact* in my arguments.

You're too caught up on the word fact. Dogmatic religions have that effect on people. It also causes them to emphasize words like "truth" a lot. They also tend to look at the word "theory" as having very little evidence with a lot of uncertainty; which is wrong.

The answers you seek can't be shown as fact by science, true, but the probability of certain things is so extremely low you might as well just say it is close to fact as you can get.

You're less hesitant to base your arguments on science because science doesn't provide "fact" for some things, yet the old ancient book you read called the Bible claims that things are fact because it says so. Again, this is a common need among people who follow dogmatic religions (I know, I felt the way you do once upon a time). They need to feel that there is no doubt about something despite there being evidence for or against it (faith comes into play).

Simply casting away many scientific theories because it doesn't give you a dogmatic belief system to follow is theological lunacy, and I don't mean to offend you by that.

 

[Jaden]

hahaha whats with being so patronising? i don't categorise you so why are u stereotyping me by saying i follow a dogmatic belief system.. i really don't.

The only reason im hestiant to base my arguments on science alone is because i admittedly am ignorant in that area. I don't enjoy science and prefer observing and finding patterns for myself... i don't care how much evidence a scientist finds if i see constant contradictions in the practicality of it then im not going to believe it just because someone told me to. i love hearing and thinking about scientific arguments however i dont' feel that coming to my own conclusions is ingorant or blind.

In fact i find it really interesting that just because i don't agree makes me blind. most of my conclusions have nothing to do with my faith at all. They are logical (in my mind of course) i come to my own conclusions about religion too. i don't know where you or spike got the idea that i accept things regardless of truth or logic. i don't cast away scientific theories becasue they don't give me a dogmatic belief system to follow i only cast away theories that are in my mind disproven. Note.. im not asking anyone else to discard them... i have to base my beliefs on what i think is right not what you or anyone else tells me is right

I don't think theories have little evidence. i think everything is a theory... where are u getting this from?

edit*
i forgot about the whole discrimination thing.. back on topic

i feel it is discrimination to not want to listen to your friends "encounter" based only on the fact that the person they got with was of the same sex. how is that NOT discriminatory

your g/f is not being discriminatory by not wanting to hear about your previous g/f? because her reasons are msot likely based on a different idea such as not wanting to be compared

 

[amrtin77]

i said this before and ill gays it again, i got nothing against gays as long as they dont talk with an annoying lisp and get me involved. if you can act like a normal guy then thats how ill treat you, i dont care about sexuality weather they are homo or hetero. i just hate that freaking ANNOYING LISP!!! when it comes down to being homosexual i logically find myself saying "if thats what they believe is right and enjoy then let them be gay" but my regular mind thinks ew. but i think if you sit down and think about it youll find yourself more accepting of gays even if you still think ew.

 

[Tempest Storm]

And exactly what is it you draw your conclusions from?

 

[Jaden]

ill draw my conclusions from a combination of science, personal experience, faith, practicality, and observations.

now we really come down to it.. is it even possible not to treat a person differently if they are of a different sexual orientation.. this is partly what i mean. you can claim science says its a birth defect, we all think we are equal, ideally there should be no discrimination etc. but in practice its not going to happen!!!!!!! therefore there must be something wrong.

amrtin (i agree with you but for the sake of argument) who are you to say what a "normal" guy is>?

 

[Flag]

hahaha whats with being so patronising?

I apologize if I have a patronising tone. I do not mean my words to contain as such.

i don't categorise you so why are u stereotyping me by saying i follow a dogmatic belief system.. i really don't.

I understood that you categorized yourself as Christian from a past post. Christanity is a dogmatic belief system, thus I classified you as such. If for some reason you don't then I'll disreguard it in future arguments and I apologize. Though I can recall you mentioning being a Christian.

The only reason im hestiant to base my arguments on science alone is because i admittedly am ignorant in that area. I don't enjoy science and prefer observing and finding patterns for myself...

Well I can't get you to read science books or look up info though I would say you'll learn things much quicker on subjects as these by understanding the sides of Religion and the sides of Science rather then only understanding one, or neither. Personal observation can only go so far.

i don't care how much evidence a scientist finds if i see constant contradictions in the practicality of it then im not going to believe it just because someone told me to. i love hearing and thinking about scientific arguments however i dont' feel that coming to my own conclusions is ingorant or blind.

That's good, you shouldn't believe anything just because someone tells you to. You're only ignorant however if you do not care to hear the evidence of one side or neither. If you don't care to read or listen to opposing arguments then you would be blind.

In fact i find it really interesting that just because i don't agree makes me blind.

When did I say this?

i don't cast away scientific theories becasue they don't give me a dogmatic belief system to follow i only cast away theories that are in my mind disproven.

Or, like you mentioned, because you don't know much about the subject. For instance, asking why there are still monkeys around if humans evolved from them. The answer is rather easy to understand and can be seen if you do basic research into evolution. However most people don't and thus questions like these prevent them from agreeing with the theory in question. (I'm not saying you have this question, just an example)

I don't think theories have little evidence. i think everything is a theory... where are u getting this from?

Somewhat true; only negative arguments need a theory. If I said 1 meter is equal to 100 centimeters that is not a theory, that's fact. However, that is not a negative argument.

and it takes ALOT more than that for me to be offended

Good because I don't mean to. I know I can be aggressive in discussions.

 

[I_CANADIAN_I]

*Waits for Wing to say lockey lockey lockey closed because this thread is so old*

DR is a fool thats all. He has nothing else to do but go around saying that homosexuality sucks. I for one am tired of his blabering.

 

[amrtin77]

i was refering to normal as in not talking with that lisp that i hate so much.... and yes its very possible to look at homosexuals the same as everyone else. i know a kid who i was freinds with for awhile and didnt realize he was gay for a few months. he didnt talk with a stupid lisp and he acted normal, his onyl difference was that he was homosexual. i dont feel any different about him for it, he never atcs weird around me and never rubs it in my face so what right do i have to care?