Abortion

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Lizardbreath

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Tipsy said:
Let's think...they did. Abortion is murder, and murder was 'invented', for the lack of a better word, quite a long time before 200 years ago.
-lets get this straight. Too you its murder. Not all people think like you do.

Edit:Too Cheesy puffs; It is legally sound and my post proves that it is. I gave definitions and sources to back it up.

Edit#2: I did address his arguments he brought up the constitution...I defended it....I defined posterity and the words withing it and used the preamble also. what have I missed?
 

Tipsy

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Edit:Too Cheesy puffs; It is legally sound and my post proves that it is. I gave definitions and sources to back it up.
Okay, let's examime you post from top to bottom.
1) You respond to Lights with insults.
2) You talk about 'back ally abortions' which have nothing to do with anything legal.
3) You say a woman has a right to her body. This in no way responds to the Abortion --> Roe vs Wade --> Fourteenth Ammendment --> Griswold vs Connecticut --> Ninth Ammendment that you did not even mention in your post.
4) You post your opinion that giving unborn babies rights is a gimmick to take away women's rights.
5) You post the number of babies aborted in the US in 1996 and then how many women were killed 'world wide' in back ally abortions. Once again, no legal case.
6) You say why women have abortions, no legal case.
7) You for some reason assume that because someone is religious it makes them a 'better' person talk about double standards which has no legal case.
8) You give a case history of Roe vs Wade which I had already given and responded to in detail pages ago.
9) You quote a justice which I had already used before anyone had mentioned Roe vs Wade and responded to it pages back.
10) You talk about Griswold vs Connecticut and fail to attack the whole reason I put that case in my argument with the ninth ammendment.
11) You wrongly assume that the fourteenth ammendment is in my argument and point out the word born, when infact the only reason it is in there is to completely the link of: Abortion --> Roe vs Wade --> Fourteenth Ammendment --> Griswold vs Connecticut --> Ninth Ammendment
12) You insult my argument without having even attacking the whole reason my argument is valid.
13) You blatantly ignore the definition that would be good for my argument, and on top of that, you use a modern dictionary to interpret a 200 year old document.
14) You say it is a damn long expression.

I believe that just about covers everything you said in a nutshell. In it you have addressed pretty much nothing in my argument due to a lack of comprehension or just ignorance that there was more to my argument.

Edit#2: I did address his arguments he brought up the constitution...I defended it....I defined posterity and the words withing it and used the preamble also. what have I missed?
If you bothered reading my post, you would see you addressed absolutely nothing. You see the words 'fourteenth ammedment' and 'preamble'. Then you just give the results of the case. Then you say the fourteenth ammendment hast he word born in it. In order to debate my argument you have to comprehend it. I put it in the simplest words I could in the response. Everybody else in this thread, can comprehend my argument and that it is legally sound. Read my argument and respond to it. What have you missed? Everything.

lizardbreath said:
-lets get this straight. Too you its murder. Not all people think like you do.
Unfortunately, until you prove my legally sound argument wrong, the constitution will consider it murder, and that is all I need.

I urge you to re-read every single post of this thread, for both sides of the argument many times and atleast attempt to comprehend what sits before your eyes.

And that is just what you lack comprehension of for my argument. Then there is Undead Cheese who has points which you constantly ignore. I hope this post is clear and detailed enough for you to 'comprehend'.
 

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thebastardsword said:
ok, lets compare your point to that of slave owners wanting to keep slaves back in the 1800's:

in the US, it was perfectally legal prior to the American Civil War to own slaves as you would a beast of burden. the argument the slave owners had against banning of slavery must hae been something like this...

"why dont you outlaw the ownership of horses? both slaves and horses are used for labor, so why dont you take that away as well?"

seems very familiar when compared to your point of outlaw sex, sex is perfectally legal as is having horses, oxen, cows, etc. Yet, to limit and restrict the rights of another human being wether be man, woman or child, it was ruled that you cannot own them because they were(are?) all humans and shouldnt be treated like dirt.

now, there were cases back in ancient rome when slavery was perfectally fine to practice. If you were poor, you could become a slave in order to work off your debts and eventually make enough money to become a regular person again. Likewise, abortion should be allowed in some situations if it might endanger the mother's life and(this is where i would disagree) if there was a rape or a place where the woman had no say whatsoever, then she should be allowed to have the baby removed.

I disagree with that last part because i think the rapist shouls have to pay ALL the medical expenses for having the baby, and then if the mother chooses to keep the baby, the rapist should have to pay child support for at least 2 years after conception.

I believe it was undead cheese who said this, but, sperm have 0 potential to become anything and eggs have 0 potential to become anything. Untill fertilization, the sperm would merely be discarded by the body through urination or the egg would be ejected at the end of menstration. Thus, by your debate of not having sex or using birth control methods, having menstration or never using the sperm, you would be breaking the law...which would never happen. Using birth control merely stops the fertilization from happening or makes it have no effect.(not sure which)
Yes, im quoting myself. This argument practically should have ended not too long after it. Face it, the court makes descisions that are not always right. If anyone read my post...they probably did but didnt say anything about it...they would understand that this same exact argument has been made before under different circumstances.

tipsy, undead, lights, the easiest way to make this situation go away is to click ignore. thats it, dont have to worry about the repetitive posts, they will all go away.
 

Lizardbreath

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Tipsy said:
Okay, let's examime you post from top to bottom.
1) You respond to Lights with insults.

-Which he deserved for coming in here spouting useless bs.

2) You talk about 'back ally abortions' which have nothing to do with anything legal.

-they are completely relevant to the case...this isn't only a legal issue this is a social issue and if 1.7 women were dying a year before it was outlawed imagine what the numbers would be if it is not?

3) You say a woman has a right to her body. This in no way responds to the Abortion

-How does this not have anything to do with abortion? Afterall the fetus is connected to the women is it not? The fetus lives off of the nutrients of a women's body does it not? IT IS BY ALL MEANS RELEVANT

--> Roe vs Wade --> Fourteenth Ammendment --> Griswold vs Connecticut --> Ninth Ammendment that you did not even mention in your post.

5) You post the number of babies aborted in the US in 1996 and then how many women were killed 'world wide' in back ally abortions. Once again, no legal case.

-Again not worldwide it is in the U.S what those numbers are there for.

6) You say why women have abortions, no legal case.

-Relevant to the social issue which I adressed above

7) You for some reason assume that because someone is religious it makes them a 'better' person talk about double standards which has no legal case.

-Again you are on with this no legal case stuff...I cited the constitution where it specifically says it gives rights to "BORN and NATURALIZED" Citizens did I not? Then you are saying the constitution is not legal? Well there goes your argument also...care to think of any more defense?

8) You give a case history of Roe vs Wade which I had already given and responded to in detail pages ago.

-Yes Roe VS. Wade stated specifically that it was a women's right whether or not she could choose her right to abort the baby...again complete relevance since it is the SUPREME COURT.





11) You wrongly assume that the fourteenth ammendment is in my argument and point out the word born, when infact the only reason it is in there is to completely the link of: Abortion --> Roe vs Wade --> Fourteenth Ammendment --> Griswold vs Connecticut --> Ninth Ammendment

-Yes Our founding fathers were like..."Hey guys lets add the word prosterity so we can make sure that abortion doesn't take place." There wasn't any intent on their mind to put that in there and you are acting as if That was the reason why it was written which it is not.

12) You insult my argument without having even attacking the whole reason my argument is valid.

-I did attack the validity of your argument because

a) You specifically stated the word "posterity" making that your ownly constitutional argument for abortion correct? Through the english dictionary (not the tipsy dictionary of law) I showed you a direct connection and therefore nullified your argument.
b) you use the preamble to state your argument and when I use it it must be null and void


13) You blatantly ignore the definition that would be good for my argument, and on top of that, you use a modern dictionary to interpret a 200 year old document.

-And you are some sort of an expert on the constitution and you interpret it 100% correct and everybody else that opposes you must be wrong? Right....


14) You say it is a damn long expression.

-Damn right I did and I was just as pissed off as you were that I wrote such a long response. I am stubborn like that.

I believe that just about covers everything you said in a nutshell. In it you have addressed pretty much nothing in my argument due to a lack of comprehension or just ignorance that there was more to my argument.

-And I believe I covered everything you had to post in a nutshell and completely debunked it.
I deleted the paragraph below this because quite frankly it was just you being as stubborn as I am. Yes I recited the 14th ammenment. A Legally binding document. For some reason when you use the constitution and technicalities like the word "posterity" in the preamble it must be correct but when I point it out it must be wrong....

-And I hope that this post is completely clear for you too comprehend. I even put spaces in their so you could read it clearly.
 

Lights

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lizardbreath said:
I thought I might as well throw in some numbers for you as long as I am at it.
Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700
-If you outlawed abortions it would just go back to the old way where people would do back-alley abortions and several women would die anyways. So you would be supporting the killing of aproximately 1.37 million women worldwide.
How do you go from "several" to millions? >_>

You say it would cause 'several' killings of women worldwide. Guess what. You are already killing 1.37 million unborns worldwide! I try not to think of myself as overly mean or cruel, but if 'several' women must die due to "back-alley" abortions - perhaps millions of innocent lives could be saved in their place. Perhaps people would start thinking before ****ing? Or perhaps people will stop murdering those whom they created? Nah.. that would be too civil. Women must have their rights! Right? Who gives a shit about the rights of that which is inside them! Yea!

And I'm still looking for where you "destroyed" all of the arguments. All I can find is where you said that you did, which was debunked, and you saying you did it again. Odd.


Btw - thanks for the PM. It really meant a lot to me. I printed it out and will carry it in my wallet. Call me sometime?
 

Lizardbreath

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EDIT: To the idiot above me...those numbers are just for the U.S. THERE ARE MILLIONS MORE WORLDWIDE. Whats your number baby?

Just for fun I thought I would throw this in for you
From the constitution:

Article XIV.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

-Again the part where it says Born...I will even throw in the english definition for you hard of sight.
born ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bôrn)
v.
A past participle of bear1.

adj. Abbr. b.

Brought into life by birth.
Brought into existence; created: A new nation was born with the revolution.


No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;
nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

-Again I will bring in the word liberty in here and define it for you hard of sight.
lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t)
n. pl. lib·er·ties

1.The condition of being free from restriction or control.
-Meaning we cannot tell a women she has to have a baby

2.The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3.The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor.
4.Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
-Which would be forcing women to have children they don't want
5.A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

Wow I brought in another ammenment and used it too defend my argument. Legal grounds I would say...but too you it isn't why is that?

And for fun I thought I would bring in some more...
Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

-Which would mean no forced labors here either.....

EDIT: It still will never fail to amaze me that you say that I don't site the constitution or attack your arguments. Here is a perfectly well defended argument for abortion using SOLELY the constitution of the United States of America. Definitions for each words that you may have problems comprehending and getting the full meaning of. What more do you want? For me to hire a ****en lawyer to come in hear and say that mine is legally sound? Too me it sounds legal enough. Not too mention for a debate on something like abortion you can use other issues like those of the social nature to back up your claims. It is part of the debate and it is relevant.

Thought I would clear something up while I am at it. For my post with the definition on posterity. When they are talking about future generations they are talking about future generations like (children/elders/middle aged) not the fetus's inside a women's body.
 

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lizardbreath said:
EDIT: To the idiot above me...those numbers are just for the U.S. THERE ARE MILLIONS MORE WORLDWIDE. Whats your number baby?
Dont ever flame in this forum again, or I will eat your soul.

Oh wait, you gave it to battleforums. I'll content myself with your eyes then.
 

Tipsy

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I have never seen anyone ask me to quote myself more than you have lizardbreath.

First off, you continually ignore every point Undead Cheese has made. You haev also constantly ignored the fact that all humans are guarenteed rights by the United Nations, no matter what nation they are a citizen of, or if not one at all. A unborn baby is genetically identical to a human, and your argument rests on grounds that would immediately being thrown out as for violating international human rights laws.

Then of course you completely ignore my argument because you can't see it in the big picture, all you see is 'preamble', 'fourteenth ammendment', 'ninth ammendment', and then apply it to how your mind sees fit. I gave reasoning which you have either failed to comprehend or ignore.

Not to mention, you ignored an entire post, that was actually two posts long, that completely answered your questions and more.

I will ask you to do one thing, something I have constantly repeated in this thread, read my posts, read my argument, understand my argument, and then and only then should you attempt to attack my argument. Please stop spurting random information that has nearly nothing to do with my argument.

To sum everything up: Read Post --> Read Argument --> Understand Argument --> Attack argument, not the steps you have taken of 'read post --> attack argument.
 

Lizardbreath

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Tipsy said:
I have never seen anyone ask me to quote myself more than you have lizardbreath.

First off, you continually ignore every point Undead Cheese has made. You haev also constantly ignored the fact that all humans are guarenteed rights by the United Nations, no matter what nation they are a citizen of, or if not one at all. A unborn baby is genetically identical to a human, and your argument rests on grounds that would immediately being thrown out as for violating international human rights laws.

Then of course you completely ignore my argument because you can't see it in the big picture, all you see is 'preamble', 'fourteenth ammendment', 'ninth ammendment', and then apply it to how your mind sees fit. I gave reasoning which you have either failed to comprehend or ignore.

Not to mention, you ignored an entire post, that was actually two posts long, that completely answered your questions and more.

I will ask you to do one thing, something I have constantly repeated in this thread, read my posts, read my argument, understand my argument, and then and only then should you attempt to attack my argument. Please stop spurting random information that has nearly nothing to do with my argument.

To sum everything up: Read Post --> Read Argument --> Understand Argument --> Attack argument, not the steps you have taken of 'read post --> attack argument.
-I just thought I would quote your post again.
Here is how it works for me. Post my own argument----> Read your argument----> Post against your argument and include some info to support my argument. (or attack it...whatever)---> and then post against anything you rebuttle against on my post. You say that the ninth/fourteenth/preamble argument is wrong? How? It was never wrong.

Edit: I read Undead cheese's argument against my first really long post. A lot of the argument was his own personal opinion on things. Which is alright. But I am arguing legality and social. If he has his own opinions socially he has the right to state them. But he is saying things For example:
( written Yesterday, 08:36 PM by undead cheese)

* The government isn't forcing anyone to have a baby. The woman chose to accept the risk of pregnancy by having sex. Personal opinion

* Exactly. The woman chose to have sex, and thus chose to accept the responsibility that goes along with it. Personal opinion

* Why would I want to do that? Seems to me like you're putting words in our mouths. Poor rebuttle

* Yes, it is their choice to have sex, and by having sex they have chosen to accept the potential consequences. You can't gamble all of your money, lose, and then refuse to pay the bill because it's not convenient. Personal thought by an example

-If you read a lot of his are personal opinions. I cannot give any legal reasoning for him to change his opinion. He is entitled to it as am I.


EDIT# 2 A post by you earlier on tipsy
I will once again quote a legal document:(which I have quoted all throughout my last posts and you said they are void)
"...holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;"
I do not see anywhere in here where it says 'all men are born equal'. The constitution specifically says 'created' not 'born'. It means what it says. Just because you have a different color skin or condition does not mean that your unalienable rights just magically go poof. I talked more specifically about this when I talked how the 9th and 14th ammendment applied to the court decisions. Regardless of whether or not you agree with my interpretation of the constitution, it is obvious whether you are for abortion or not that the ammendments used to justify Rode vs Wade were used in the exact opposite way of how they were suppose to. The fourteenth ammendment was used to help justify abortion while it was made to protect people from gaining equal rights and the due process guarenteed by the consitution for all people, being more specifically to help the african americans. I am talking about an argument very similar to the one being used by Bush as he put it in his own words, "I support legislation to extend 14th Amendment protections to unborn children". The key to the whole argument of abortion in the United States in is it legal or not is how it is seen by the law, not whether the unborn child can support itself or not.


-I can argue the exact same thing you have with all of your ammendments and using specific wording. You said "created" entitled fetuses to rights...."posterity" entitled fetuses to rights.....But I argued that the constitution specifically says "born" also. Its a double standard which is why this will always be a two-sided debate. The constitution contradicts itself in this regard and is unclear because of the fact that it was written 200 years ago and abortion was not around at that time. Which is where interpratation comes into play.
 

Tipsy

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Here we go, since you cannot seem to be able to read posts very well, I will try to explain it to you one more time. This is the last time I will give such leeway in explaining something that I have already put into extreme detail. Please read this very carefully. I am putting my entire argument [on the United States legal system] in this one single post, so pay close attention. I shall start from scratch.

As you should know, abortion was legalized in the court case Roe vs Wade. Justice Blackmun said that the Constitution does not specifically mention a privacy right, but to quote Justice Blackmun “in varying contexts the Court or individual justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right.†To continue his reason for justifying abortion, "This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy." So the whole reasoning behind the legalization of abortion was not even based on the Constitution.

Now onto the fourteenth amendment which deal with limitations on life, liberty, and property. Though we are guaranteed rights by the government, the government can in fact ‘infringe’ upon these as long as both notice is given and it has an opportunity to be heard. Also, there is the fact that this amendment extended the Bill of rights to both states and Congress, and was not in any way intended to add concrete rights to the Constitution. So you ask, where are the ‘privacy rights’ from?

This right of privacy in fact comes from another court case, Griswold vs Connecticut. The right of privacy comes from the first amendment, third amendment, fourth amendment, and fifth amendment. In a summary, the Griswold vs Connecticut case determined four things main things, there are unmentioned and fundamental rights in the Constitution, if something is not mentioned as a right, then it doesn’t mean that right does not exist, the unmentioned rights can’t be restricted and the fourteenth amendment applies this constraint to states, and that the ‘right of privacy’ was one of the unmentioned rights.

Now, our founding fathers did not have the medical technology to get the knowledge of the biology of unborn babies that we have today, and it seems quite obvious that this perfectly natural stage of human development would be covered because no other stage of human development is covered either. Maybe adolescents shouldn’t have the right to live because they are a strain on their mother’s “liberty interestâ€.

To continue my argument, I will now apply this to Roe vs Wade. Justice Blackmun said that protecting the unalienable right to life did not take priority over an abortion until the third trimester. This opinion by Justice Blackmun is not written in any constitutional document, but instead is an incredibly broad interpretation. On top of that, the Griswold decision did not go anywhere near legalizing abortion.

So let’s look at this, the right to privacy doesn’t cover many areas in a woman’s life, but yet for some magical and unexplainable reason it applies without justification to the right to have an abortion. An argument that is used against abortion is that “criminalizing abortions penalizes only women, since only women become pregnant, and forcing her to carry the child to term without just compensation would be and unconstitutional burden†such as Justice Ginsburg said, but the whole argument is mute because of the fact that this can be argued both ways and in fact never was argued in Roe vs Wade.

The next argument Justice Blackmun used to justify abortion to get rid of the “unwanted childâ€, as he put it, was that he said that women had a “liberty interest†which was protected by the fourteenth amendment. The thing here is that this could also be applied to a born child; so if we legalize abortion on this, why not legalize killing born children too. This argument obviously wouldn’t fly, because the right or privacy in no way overrides the right of somebody to live. But the court found a way to get around this too, they deemed unborn babies to be less than ‘fully human’, but this reminds me for something else in our history, slavery was it?

Then of course there is also the ninth amendment, which was used to justify the outcome of Griswold vs Connecticut. This amendment states that “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." To be specific, look at the word retain. This means that there are designated rights that are guaranteed by the constitutional text and should in no way ever be used for interpreting so as to deny rights that are not even specified. There is a clear violation of our the right to life here. If you remember or not, the right to life, that comes from a certain document known as the Declaration of Independence. It states that life is one of the unalienable rights that is mentioned in the charter of the United States. It even states that “all men are created equally†meaning that all human beings have the right to live, regardless of whether it is ‘potential’ or ‘full’. It gets worse, Justice Blackmun cited what he called a "fact" that "the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense" so that he could justify denying rights to unborn babies. And remember that part of history I mentioned early, the thing called slavery?

And then, the part that is conveniently skipped in my other posts, the fourteenth amendment says that the state shall not deprive any person, not just citizens, life, liberty, or property without due process. Now let us reflect over this whole ‘citizenship based’ status. This means that we have the right to take away “life, liberty or property without due process†from a born non-citizen. If the only true argument is that a baby is not a ‘full person’ then why is third trimester abortion illegal?

This is just the argument by using the United States legal system, I can also use what is guarenteed by the United Nations internationally to show how abortion should be illegal.

Remember the process: Read Post --> Read Argument --> Understand Argument --> Attack argument.
 

Sogeking

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summary: Look at the attempt to outlaw slavery and all the court cases created around it.
 

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I am glad you wrote that post so I can rewrite another essay why some of your points are wrong. First off, the declaration of independence is not a representitive of todays legal system. It was written to britain declaring the United States of America an independent nation. If it was written in the constitution then it would be alright but the declaration of independence was a statement written to britain. I could argue through the wording that it specifically protects women. Will I now. No. Because too me it seems like we are both beating at a dead horse here. We both have constitutional arguments to back up our claims. We both have interpretated it differently. The only thing we can really discuss now is social reasons.
Such as...
A) If a women is forced to have a child that she doesn't want and she chooses not to give it up and treats the child like crap. Then it is only the child that gets hurt in the long run...he will experience emotional and possibly physical problems throughout his life.
B) If we did write a law against abortion what is there to stop these "back alley" abortions from coming back again? Again...the child would still die and you could possibly expose the women to infection/and or death.
C) Whats too stop a women from going "I don't want this baby so I am just going to drink a shitload of vodka to kill it." Nothing. If you want too argue this further then you would be forcing this women to go through taking care of themselves for the baby.
D) There are some good sides though....if a women puts it up for adoption and the baby gets adopted by a good family. Then he can live a normal life.

Edit: Too the Bastardsword- I believe abortion is going on the same path slavery was. If you remember for a LONG time gay marriages/abortion never stood a chance of surviving because of the countries strong christian backers. But now people are more accustom to gay marriages/abortion. I am not saying its a good thing but I believe it isn't the government jobs to put such a harness on its citizens. (edit: dont take this out of context I only believe this for gay marriages/abortion...I am not saying we should have no laws...etc.)
 

Tipsy

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I am amazed out how many times you cannot understand what you read. Now that you are talking from a specific argument I can tell you what you do not understand. I suggest you quote my argument, because your legal backup is everything my legal backup disproves.

I am glad you wrote that post so I can rewrite another essay why some of your points are wrong. First off, the declaration of independence is not a representitive of todays legal system. It was written to britain declaring the United States of America an independent nation.
First thing you understood. Noitce I wrote "There is a clear violation of our the right to life here. If you remember or not, the right to life, that comes from a certain document known as the Declaration of Independence. It states that life is one of the unalienable rights that is mentioned in the charter of the United States." The Declaration of Independance is the charter of the United States as is in that quote. What is a charter? It is, and I quote, "A document issued by a sovereign, legislature, or other authority, creating a public or private corporation, such as a city, college, or bank, and defining its privileges and purposes." So if we do not give the inalienable rights to everyone, then guess what, a huge bulk of why our nation exists has gone wrong. Not to mention the Declaration of Independance has been the legal backup of things such as President Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation.

If it was written in the constitution then it would be alright but the declaration of independence was a statement written to britain.
So you are arguing that it doesn't exist because it isn't in the constitution. Guess what, the right of privacy isn't written in the constitution either, yet it exists.

I could argue through the wording that it specifically protects women.
If you bothered reading my post I have addressed that:
"So let’s look at this, the right to privacy doesn’t cover many areas in a woman’s life, but yet for some magical and unexplainable reason it applies without justification to the right to have an abortion. An argument that is used against abortion is that “criminalizing abortions penalizes only women, since only women become pregnant, and forcing her to carry the child to term without just compensation would be and unconstitutional burden†such as Justice Ginsburg said, but the whole argument is mute because of the fact that this can be argued both ways and in fact never was argued in Roe vs Wade."

Will I now. No. Because too me it seems like we are both beating at a dead horse here.
It seems to me I am riding my horse and you are trying to ride your nonexistant horse.

We both have constitutional arguments to back up our claims. We both have interpretated it differently.
Unfortunately my 'interpretation' has legal backing while everything in yours has already been addressed and discredited.

As for social reasons, I could care less, if you want to risk your life to break the law so be it, it was your choice to do so.
 

Lizardbreath

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Your telling me my explanations of the 9th/14th ammenment are wrong? I proved all your sources as wrong because you twist words into something you believe them to be. When, by use of the dictionary, I prove you wrong. You say that it is also wrong. So you are now greater then the constitution,english dictionary, and the supreme court. Somehow I believe you need to get down off your high horse and step back into reality here. Abortion probably will never be outlawed again.

Edit: Further....The U.N has nothing in its documentation specifically against abortions. It would never get approved by the U.N because there are several countries within the U.N that have extrememly high abortion rates.
 

Tipsy

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lizardbreath said:
Your telling me my explanations of the 9th/14th ammenment are wrong?
Exactly. There is no legal arguement that you have said that is not discredited by my argument.

I proved all your sources as wrong because you twist words into something you believe them to be. When, by use of the dictionary, I prove you wrong. You say that it is also wrong. So you are now greater then the constitution,english dictionary, and the supreme court. Somehow I believe you need to get down off your high horse and step back into reality here. Abortion probably will never be outlawed again.
I'm pretty sure you are the only one who sees that, because so far no one has agreed with anything you have said.

Edit: Further....The U.N has nothing in its documentation specifically against abortions. It would never get approved by the U.N because there are several countries within the U.N that have extrememly high abortion rates.
Your right, the United Nations has nothing that deals with abortion, because unborn babies are seen as not 'full persons'. The point is, that action is constitutional.
 

Lizardbreath

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OF course man...just because there are parts where it specifically says that rights are only guaranteed to born citizens. I notice a trend here. You interpret the constitution; and that is the only way it can be seen. Everybody else must be wrong. Well lets look at it this way. My constitutional argument specifically includes wording that is relevant to my case. Yours involves a really broad interpretation of single words which I have already discredited. You just failed to read the portions where it completely discredited your post via the dictionary and the constitutions specific wording. Where in your argument does it say future unborn children? Something that is not outside of the mother technically has no rights because it has yet to breath on its own. Take it as you like...I don't care if you say "OMGZ WElL EvERyBoDy IS ON MY SIdEzz!!!22!@@!" it means close to nothing. I will use the slavery argument. In the south the population was for slavery. But if you brought it into the north it would be outlawed. Just because you have 2 others on an internet forum (where there aren't much on this thread) and you write really REALLY long post doesn't make your argument right. It's even worse that you have no care whatsoever about the social issues that will be brought around if we did legalize abortion. Again you are ignoring a key issue here. If a women doesnt want the baby. She can simply slip a pill down her throat and it will die....or drink a lot of alcohol. It is foolish too do something that could ultimately bring harm to the kid in the form of emotional/physical trama. I could venture too say that if they get left alone enough that they could eventually become criminals. Not too mention that if you outlaw all abortion then girls who get raped would be forced to keep their rapists baby. Makes a whole lot of sense doesn't it?
 

Tipsy

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OF course man...just because there are parts where it specifically says that rights are only guaranteed to born citizens.
Once again, you have failed to read my post, this is from my other post as well:
“And then, the part that is conveniently skipped in my other posts, the fourteenth amendment says that the state shall not deprive any person, not just citizens, life, liberty, or property without due process. Now let us reflect over this whole ‘citizenship based’ status. This means that we have the right to take away “life, liberty or property without due process†from a born non-citizen. If the only true argument is that a baby is not a ‘full person’ then why is third trimester abortion illegal?â€


I notice a trend here. You interpret the constitution; and that is the only way it can be seen. Everybody else must be wrong.
I don’t interpret the constitution; I look at it how it is. I look at court cases and tell you the outcome. I tell you how they all link together and how what the judges said was unconstitutional. For example, from my other post, again:
“The next argument Justice Blackmun used to justify abortion to get rid of the “unwanted childâ€, as he put it, was that he said that women had a “liberty interest†which was protected by the fourteenth amendment. The thing here is that this could also be applied to a born child; so if we legalize abortion on this, why not legalize killing born children too. This argument obviously wouldn’t fly, because the right or privacy in no way overrides the right of somebody to live. But the court found a way to get around this too, they deemed unborn babies to be less than ‘fully human’, but this reminds me for something else in our history, slavery was it?â€
It is not ‘interpretation’ it is looking at how our different court cases have effected the United States’ legal system.

Well lets look at it this way. My constitutional argument specifically includes wording that is relevant to my case.
Once again, I will quote what I said above in response to my first quoting of you:
“And then, the part that is conveniently skipped in my other posts, the fourteenth amendment says that the state shall not deprive any person, not just citizens, life, liberty, or property without due process. Now let us reflect over this whole ‘citizenship based’ status. This means that we have the right to take away “life, liberty or property without due process†from a born non-citizen. If the only true argument is that a baby is not a ‘full person’ then why is third trimester abortion illegal?â€

Yours involves a really broad interpretation of single words. Where in your argument does it say future unborn children?
It doesn’t, it guarantees it to all humans, including adolescents, infants, and unborn babies. It guarantees it to everyone citizen or not.

Something that is not outside of the mother technically has no rights because it has yet to breath on its own.
Does that mean you don’t support people using life support in medical facilities because they cannot ‘breath on their own’? Your argument cannot apply to only one stage of development in the human life cycle. On top of that, it has the right to live, just like every single human does. This is not only guaranteed to United States citizens, but to every person on this earth, regardless of what point of the life cycle they are in. It does not matter if they are a citizen or not. It does not matter whether they are born or not.

Take it as you like...I don't care if you say "OMGZ WElL EvERyBoDy IS ON MY SIdEzz!!!22!@@!"
I am trying to point out that everyone can read my argument but you. I have already put it before that Lights is probably the most skillful person on this forum as bashing my arguments.

I am only trying to get you to read.

it means close to nothing. I will use the slavery argument. In the south the population was for slavery. But if you brought it into the north it would be outlawed. Just because you have 2 others on an internet forum (where there aren't much on this thread) doesn't make your argument right.
Your right, that doesn’t make me right, what makes me right is the legal system of the United States of America.

Notice how I have only quoted myself from a previous post when I defend my argument. Maybe if you bothered reading anything you could see it clearly, but for now if you wish to keep digging yourself into the hole you are already in, be my guest.
 

Lizardbreath

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If its the hole that says i'm right due to the wording of the constitution which you have always failed to admit I have used. Then Yes. I will keep digging my hole.

Edit: Quoted from myself earlier so you can read the whole fourteenth ammendment. Not just the part you deem relevant.

"The fourteenth ammendment
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."


-Oh wait. Whats this again? Born or naturalized? Where oh where is unborn in this part?

Or we could argue yours...if they do technically have rights when they are inside their mothers. Illegal immigrant women could illegally walk over here while pregnant and get their child citizenship. Because if a child is BORN on the land of the U.S it is a citizen. But since you say that it somehow is guaranteed the rights of a full human being. Then it too gets citizenship.


Another argument quoted by yours:
“The next argument Justice Blackmun used to justify abortion to get rid of the “unwanted childâ€, as he put it, was that he said that women had a “liberty interest†which was protected by the fourteenth amendment. The thing here is that this could also be applied to a born child; so if we legalize abortion on this, why not legalize killing born children too. This argument obviously wouldn’t fly, because the right or privacy in no way overrides the right of somebody to live. But the court found a way to get around this too, they deemed unborn babies to be less than ‘fully human’, but this reminds me for something else in our history, slavery was it?â€

-Just because you quote history doesn't make it relevant to the case. Were slaves missing arms? Legs? Brains? Could they breathe outside and walk? It's an irrelevant argument to the cause we are arguing here.


Again another thing I will quote from you showing that you are a hypocrite.
"And the second definition fits the one that supports my argument. Also, please tell me what sense it makes to use a 'modern' dictionary to interpret 200 year old document. Hrmm, maybe you should look into what they meant by the word posterity by looking at what some of the people who wrote the constitution thought about the topic. "

-You say that I shouldn't use the definitions of a word to defend my argument. But yet you are using the definitions of a word to defend your argument yourself. hypocrite.
 

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lizardbreath said:
1)I will use the slavery argument. In the south the population was for slavery. But if you brought it into the north it would be outlawed.

2)Again you are ignoring a key issue here. If a women doesnt want the baby. She can simply slip a pill down her throat and it will die....or drink a lot of alcohol.

3)It is foolish too do something that could ultimately bring harm to the kid in the form of emotional/physical trama.

4)I could venture too say that if they get left alone enough that they could eventually become criminals.

5)Not too mention that if you outlaw all abortion then girls who get raped would be forced to keep their rapists baby. Makes a whole lot of sense doesn't it?
ill try and give my point of view since obviously your not reading tispys

1)Actually, slave owners were the minority in the south, if you were to take out all the slaves and attempt to use machines in the south, it would take 10-20 years to put all this into motion and the economy of the south would take a hit below the belt that it would take several years to reive, besides, how many major farming industries were there in the north? corn? the machines used for obtaining corn are quite simplistic in comparison to the ones used for cotton gins...

2)Ok? morning after pill? you do understand that is different than techniques used by abortion doctors to remove the fetus? do you even know what the operation to abort a fetus is?

3)In case you havent noticed, sexual intercourse is the way humans reproduce, why do you think the bible says to wait until marriage to have sex?

4)Not in planned parenthood

5)
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest


EDIT: let me show you all the definitions for born

1. To support or sustain; to hold up.

2. To support and remove or carry; to convey.

I 'll bear your logs the while. --Shak.

3. To conduct; to bring; -- said of persons. [Obs.]

Bear them to my house. --Shak.

4. To possess and use, as power; to exercise.

Every man should bear rule in his own house. --Esther i. 22.

5. To sustain; to have on (written or inscribed, or as a mark), as, the tablet bears this inscription.

6. To possess or carry, as a mark of authority or distinction; to wear; as, to bear a sword, badge, or name.

7. To possess mentally; to carry or hold in the mind; to entertain; to harbor --Dryden.

The ancient grudge I bear him. --Shak.

8. To endure; to tolerate; to undergo; to suffer.

Should such a man, too fond to rule alone, Bear, like the Turk, no brother near the throne. --Pope.

I cannot bear The murmur of this lake to hear. --Shelley.

My punishment is greater than I can bear. --Gen. iv. 13.

9. To gain or win. [Obs.]

Some think to bear it by speaking a great word. --Bacon.

She was . . . found not guilty, through bearing of friends and bribing of the judge. --Latimer.

10. To sustain, or be answerable for, as blame, expense, responsibility, etc.

He shall bear their iniquities. --Is. liii. 11.

Somewhat that will bear your charges. --Dryden.

11. To render or give; to bring forward. ``Your testimony bear'' --Dryden.

12. To carry on, or maintain; to have. ``The credit of bearing a part in the conversation.'' --Locke.

13. To admit or be capable of; that is, to suffer or sustain without violence, injury, or change.

In all criminal cases the most favorable interpretation should be put on words that they can possibly bear. --Swift.

14. To manage, wield, or direct. ``Thus must thou thy body bear.'' --Shak. Hence: To behave; to conduct.

Hath he borne himself penitently in prison ? --Shak.

15. To afford; to be to; to supply with.

His faithful dog shall bear him company. --Pope.

16. To bring forth or produce; to yield; as, to bear apples; to bear children; to bear interest.
 

Tipsy

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lizardbreath said:
If its the hole that says i'm right due to the wording of the constitution which you have always failed to admit I have used. Then Yes. I will keep digging my hole.

Edit: Quoted from myself earlier so you can read the whole fourteenth ammendment. Not just the part you deem relevant.

"The fourteenth amendment
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Here we go, if quoting won't work, I shall color code it for you.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States
, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

1. Congratulations, you keep pointing this out over and over again. I read it. I can see it.
2. Oh wait, there is more than one phrase in the fourteenth amendment! Guess what! Every person under the jurisdiction of the United States has rights! What an ideal concept! Giving everyone rights!

-Oh wait. Whats this again? Born or naturalized? Where oh where is unborn in this part?
There is more than one part! Read the whole amendment!
nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
My God! Isn't it an ideal concept! Everybody has rights! Did you not know this?

Illegal immigrant women could illegally walk over here while pregnant and get their child citizenship. Because if a child is BORN on the land of the U.S it is a citizen. But since you say that it somehow is guaranteed the rights of a full human being. Then it too gets citizenship.
Guess what, this woman has rights to! She isn't an American citizen either! Read the second half!
nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
What a brilliant reader you are! I hope you can read color better than white on black!

-Just because you quote history doesn't make it relevant to the case. Were slaves missing arms? Legs? Brains? Could they breathe outside and walk? It's an irrelevant argument to the cause we are arguing here.
Remember the end of the Undead Cheese quote?
"Discrimination by age or physical characteristics is outlawed by the constitution." This is quote the ideal concept to! Not discriminating!
 
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