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Lizardbreath

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Then you failed to read the second part of my post. The document clearly contradicts itself.

secondly: If the U.N did say in specific wording that "Abortion was illegal" then the U.S and many other countries are in for a good ass whoopin. Which I don't see coming any time soon. Because, the law does not exsist.

Edit: And its equal protection for born citizens. Not for unborn fetus's.

Tipsy: You fail to see my point. None of these documents were written for the sake of fetus's. None. All of them are dealing with the rights of born human beings. How hard is that for you too understand. You can play with the wording all you want. But the original intent is for people past childbirth.
 

Tipsy

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Ah, you see my point now, the only reason why it is not illegal because an unborn baby is not considered a 'full person', which is unconstitutional.

Once again, you have not addressed my post about the US Constitution.
 

Lizardbreath

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Tipsy said:
Ah, you see my point now, the only reason why it is not illegal because an unborn baby is not considered a 'full person', which is unconstitutional.

Once again, you have not addressed my post about the US Constitution.
-Written before abortion exsisted...which therefore eliminates it from this sort of argument. It dealt with giving citizens basic human rights. Thats it.
 

Tipsy

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Edit: And its equal protection for born citizens. Not for unborn fetus's.
Okay, read my post again, I will help you with color-coding. "Since I am guessing you are too busy not looking at the 'entirety' of the argument, then I'll put it here for you. Okay, if I will must, I will explain to you my reasoning once again. Here we go. First off, the United States considers an alien “any person not a citizen or national of the United States†[directly from a government website]. You can consider an unborn baby not a citizen or national of the United States, as you have stubbornly pointed out over and over again, but guess what, it doesn’t matter. I keep telling you over and over again that it doesn’t matter. First off, Plyler vs Doe gave aliens protected under the Equal Protection Clause. That itself should be enough. There are a few other court cases such as Yick Wo vs Hopkins which further the rights of aliens, but that really doesn’t matter to you, now does it. As I said, I read the constitution and I see what the court says about it, I look at it in the ‘entirety’ not what you are doing by just starring at the constitution and interpreting it to what you want. I look at what our legal system says it means."

Tipsy: You fail to see my point. None of these documents were written for the sake of fetus's. None.
They were written for the protection of human rights. A fetus is a human due to it being genetically identical to any other human in other stages of development. You yourself contradict yourself when saying, "All of them are dealing with the rights of born human beings". Abortion is a human rights issue. It is the so-called 'just' discrimination of humans. This is a violation of human rights. If you question whether or not it is a human, all you have to do is look at 1) It is alive, the unborn baby can reproduce his own cells and develop them, 2) It is completely human in its characteristics, including the well pointed out 46 human chromosomes, and 3) Nothing new will be added to the unborn baby from the time the sperm enters the egg to the time the unborn baby dies as an old man/woman. It is a human being. Just because you are not born, or because you are black, does not make you not a full person. These documents make it clear that you cannot discriminate on these points.

-Written before abortion exsisted...which therefore eliminates it from this sort of argument.
I don't see what that has to do with anything. Many illegal things have were not in 'existence' when the Constitution was written, does this make them exempt from the it too?
Edit: TBS' example from the post below is a better one.

It dealt with giving citizens basic human rights. Thats it.
Not true as has been obviously pointed out.

Edit: Tell if you do not agree with any of these points and I will quote myself again for you to answer your problem.
1) An unborn baby is a human being.
2) The fourteenth amendment is not restricted to citizens of the United States.
3) The fourteenth amendment, since it’s not restricted to citizens of the United Statse, and is extended to people within the jurisdiction of the United States, protected unborn babies in the jurisdiction of the United States.
4) United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights is in fact 'universal', meaning it is "Including, relating to, or affecting all members of the class or group under consideration."
5) Since the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights is universal, is applies to even the most innocent and smallest human being, being the unborn babies.

I think that just about sums up the legal information.
 

Sogeking

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lizardbreath said:
-Written before abortion exsisted...which therefore eliminates it from this sort of argument. It dealt with giving citizens basic human rights. Thats it.
it was also written before black rights were existed...which therefore means black rights arnt guarnteed in the constitution correct?

same thing can be said with woman

same thing can be said with animals

edit: also, were(are) woman given extra treatment when they are pregnant?
 

CelestialBadger

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thebastardsword said:
it was also written before black rights were existed...which therefore means black rights arnt guarnteed in the constitution correct?

same thing can be said with woman

same thing can be said with animals

edit: also, were(are) woman given extra treatment when they are pregnant?
K, that's what amendments are for. And because the US law thus far has determined it the WOMAN's right to choose, not the MURDERER's right to chose. That's why people killing pregnant women are often charged with two murder sentences.

Now stop posting please. Your posts are stupid.
 

Sogeking

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CelestialBadger said:
K, that's what amendments are for. And because the US law thus far has determined it the WOMAN's right to choose, not the MURDERER's right to chose. That's why people killing pregnant women are often charged with two murder sentences.

Now stop posting please. Your posts are stupid.
yes, its called making a point, obviously you have read the past 3 pages of this thread.

Ill stop posting when i feel like it, why dont your save spam for the void.
 

Undead Cheese

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Wow. I have never seen someone as dense as lizard is in my entire life. Lizard, even if you were able to prove that the legality of abortion is not without contradiction, which you can't, that doesn't change whether or not it should be and why. You still have not offered an adequate rebuttal of my point, so I will post it again. Last time you failed to read the part in orange, so this time I have made that part bigger, since I know you've already seen the part in green.


HUMANS ARE DEFINED BY GENETICS, NOT BY AGE OR BY PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS. A FETUS IS GENETICALLY IDENTICAL TO A HUMAN AND IS THEREFORE ENTITLED TO THE RIGHTS GUARENTEED TO IT BY OUR LEGAL SYSTEM. NOW ADDRESS THIS POINT OR YOU WILL HAVE LOST THIS ENTIRE DEBATE!
(FUN FACT: OUR LEGAL SYSTEM DOES NOT SOLEY PROTECT ACTUAL CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY)


Now, read and understand the part in orange. You don't need to be a citizen of the United States to be guarenteed basic human rights. Understand that. Whether or not you think the law disagrees with me is irrelevent. The fact of the matter is a fetus is genetically identical to a human, and, therefore, it is a human. Don't try to argue the law with me. Argue my point on genetics.

If you fail to address this point again, I will ask that Tipsy and thebastardsword ignore any future posts you make in this thread, since you are apparently unwilling to actually read and understand the opposing side before you blindly throw out your conjecture and illogical conclusions.
 

CelestialBadger

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yes, its called making a point, obviously you have read the past 3 pages of this thread.
I'm sure you were trying to make a point. And I was pointing out that you didn't make a point because there are glaring flaws in your logic. Practically all of your posts in AS are stupid bullshit. You have no idea how to carry on a basic argumentative conversation. You try to point out flaws in people's thinking, while clinging to your own twisted logic. I want you to shut up. I want you to be banned from AS. You're just too ****ing stupid to carry on an intelligent conversation. That's all I have to say on that for now.
why dont your save spam for the void.
I'm not spamming. I was pointing out logical flaws in your reasoning. Refer to the first section of this post if you're still not clear on that.

Undead: Okay, well avoiding the fact that guarenteed human rights to life and war oppose each other...Most treatises on human rights give people the right to liberty as well as life. Liberty = "The condition of being free from restriction or control." So I wonder how you'd justify the government placing controls on people's "right" to an abortion. Yes, you can argue that their right ends where another life begins, but it's a gray area as to where life actually begins. If a fetus lives inside a person, leeching resources from them, is it life or is it a part of their body? Even if it has the potential for life...

Just a side question...do you believe that the United States was justified to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagisaki? If so please justify your position in your next post.

TBS, don't respond to this post. If you do you will be wasting your time as well as your precious few brain cells.
 

Tipsy

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Okay, well avoiding the fact that guarenteed human rights to life and war oppose each other...Most treatises on human rights give people the right to liberty as well as life. Liberty = "The condition of being free from restriction or control." So I wonder how you'd justify the government placing controls on people's "right" to an abortion. Yes, you can argue that their right ends where another life begins, but it's a gray area as to where life actually begins. If a fetus lives inside a person, leeching resources from them, is it life or is it a part of their body? Even if it has the potential for life...
Here is a basic summary of my arguement pieced together from various posts.
Note: This is only my argument with the United States Constitution, not the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

As you should know, abortion was legalized in the court case Roe vs Wade. Justice Blackmun said that the Constitution does not specifically mention a privacy right, but to quote Justice Blackmun “in varying contexts the Court or individual justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right.†To continue his reason for justifying abortion, "This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy." So the whole reasoning behind the legalization of abortion was not even based on the Constitution.

Now onto the fourteenth amendment which deal with limitations on life, liberty, and property. Though we are guaranteed rights by the government, the government can in fact ‘infringe’ upon these as long as both notice is given and it has an opportunity to be heard. Also, there is the fact that this amendment extended the Bill of rights to both states and Congress, and was not in any way intended to add concrete rights to the Constitution. So you ask, where are the ‘privacy rights’ from?

This right of privacy in fact comes from another court case, Griswold vs Connecticut. The right of privacy comes from the first amendment, third amendment, fourth amendment, and fifth amendment. In a summary, the Griswold vs Connecticut case determined four things main things, there are unmentioned and fundamental rights in the Constitution, if something is not mentioned as a right, then it doesn’t mean that right does not exist, the unmentioned rights can’t be restricted and the fourteenth amendment applies this constraint to states, and that the ‘right of privacy’ was one of the unmentioned rights.

Now, our founding fathers did not have the medical technology to get the knowledge of the biology of unborn babies that we have today, and it seems quite obvious that this perfectly natural stage of human development would be covered because no other stage of human development is covered either. Maybe adolescents shouldn’t have the right to live because they are a strain on their mother’s “liberty interestâ€.

To continue my argument, I will now apply this to Roe vs Wade. Justice Blackmun said that protecting the unalienable right to life did not take priority over an abortion until the third trimester. This opinion by Justice Blackmun is not written in any constitutional document, but instead is an incredibly broad interpretation. On top of that, the Griswold decision did not go anywhere near legalizing abortion.

So let’s look at this, the right to privacy doesn’t cover many areas in a woman’s life, but yet for some magical and unexplainable reason it applies without justification to the right to have an abortion. An argument that is used against abortion is that “criminalizing abortions penalizes only women, since only women become pregnant, and forcing her to carry the child to term without just compensation would be and unconstitutional burden†such as Justice Ginsburg said, but the whole argument is mute because of the fact that this can be argued both ways and in fact never was argued in Roe vs Wade.

The next argument Justice Blackmun used to justify abortion to get rid of the “unwanted childâ€, as he put it, was that he said that women had a “liberty interest†which was protected by the fourteenth amendment. The thing here is that this could also be applied to a born child; so if we legalize abortion on this, why not legalize killing born children too. This argument obviously wouldn’t fly, because the right or privacy in no way overrides the right of somebody to live. But the court found a way to get around this too, they deemed unborn babies to be less than ‘fully human’, but this reminds me for something else in our history, slavery was it?

Then of course there is also the ninth amendment, which was used to justify the outcome of Griswold vs Connecticut. This amendment states that “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." To be specific, look at the word retain. This means that there are designated rights that are guaranteed by the constitutional text and should in no way ever be used for interpreting so as to deny rights that are not even specified. There is a clear violation of our the right to life here. If you remember or not, the right to life, that comes from a certain document known as the Declaration of Independence. It states that life is one of the unalienable rights that is mentioned in the charter of the United States. It even states that “all men are created equally†meaning that all human beings have the right to live, regardless of whether it is ‘potential’ or ‘full’. It gets worse, Justice Blackmun cited what he called a "fact" that "the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense" so that he could justify denying rights to unborn babies. And remember that part of history I mentioned early, the thing called slavery?

And then, the part that is conveniently skipped in my other posts, the fourteenth amendment says that the state shall not deprive any person, not just citizens, life, liberty, or property without due process. If you wish to pull out the card that says “born or naturalizedâ€, the court case Plyler vs Doe gave aliens, defined by our government as “any person not a citizen or national of the United Statesâ€, which would include unborn babies. If you question whether or not it is a human, all you have to do is look at 1) It is alive, the unborn baby can reproduce his own cells and develop them, 2) It is completely human in its characteristics, including the well pointed out 46 human chromosomes, and 3) Nothing new will be added to the unborn baby from the time the sperm enters the egg to the time the unborn baby dies as an old man/woman. It is not in the ‘gray’ area, it is quite clear that the baby is not dead because it can reproduce its own cells and develop them, so it has to be alive.

As for the liberty thing, we just have to look at where a bulk of our political philosophy came from to make an educated decision here. If you have read any of my other threads where I have mentioned John Locke, then you have heard what he said in his writing before. He said that ‘unrestrained liberty’ can hurt more than it can help a society and the people within it. For example, if I want to peruse my happiness by killing you (no offense intended) then is it unconstitutional for me to be punished for killing you (or at least attempted murder)? This is exactly what the mother is doing in this case. They are perusing their own happiness through an action that in any other case would be considered unconstitutional, and murder. Also, though I have nothing to back this up, without the right of life, there really are no other rights, if you don’t live, you can’t have your liberty.

This is just the argument by using the United States legal system, I can also use what is guaranteed by the United Nations internationally to show how abortion should be illegal.

Note: I think this answers all the questions in your post and probably anything you would say to respond against them. Thanks for playing why abortion should be illegal. ;)
 

Lizardbreath

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Tipsy said:
Okay, read my post again, I will help you with color-coding. "Since I am guessing you are too busy not looking at the 'entirety' of the argument, then I'll put it here for you. Okay, if I will must, I will explain to you my reasoning once again. Here we go. First off, the United States considers an alien “any person not a citizen or national of the United States†[directly from a government website]

-Yes the government does consider people/children/baby's that are born from other countries to be citizens. Not unborn babies.

You can consider an unborn baby not a citizen or national of the United States, as you have stubbornly pointed out over and over again, but guess what, it doesn’t matter. I keep telling you over and over again that it doesn’t matter. First off, Plyler vs Doe gave aliens protected under the Equal Protection ClauseThat itself should be enough.

-I gave my argument above

There are a few other court cases such as Yick Wo vs Hopkins which further the rights of aliens, but that really doesn’t matter to you, now does it. As I said, I read the constitution and I see what the court says about it, I look at it in the ‘entirety’ not what you are doing by just starring at the constitution and interpreting it to what you want. I look at what our legal system says it means."

-So do I. And by saying that I take the constitution and say what I want it too you have just been wronged. You said through basis of elimination of the wording of the constitution that it protects unborn fetus's. When in fact. NOWHERE does it ever mention unborn babies/abortions.


They were written for the protection of human rights. A fetus is a human due to it being genetically identical to any other human in other stages of development. You yourself contradict yourself when saying, "All of them are dealing with the rights of born human beings". Abortion is a human rights issue. It is the so-called 'just' discrimination of humans. This is a violation of human rights. If you question whether or not it is a human, all you have to do is look at 1) It is alive, the unborn baby can reproduce his own cells and develop them,
-So is my dog. Does that give it human rights?
2) It is completely human in its characteristics, including the well pointed out 46 human chromosomes, and
-Yes, but in the first two trimesters it has very few if any body parts and cannot survive on its own.
3) Nothing new will be added to the unborn baby from the time the sperm enters the egg to the time the unborn baby dies as an old man/woman. It is a human being. Just because you are not born, or because you are black, does not make you not a full person. These documents make it clear that you cannot discriminate on these points.

-Aaah but my point is different. I am stating that it is against the constitution to force women to bear the agonizing toll of
a) carrying the fetus
b) Go through the pains of childbirth.
It is at her own "liberty to choose whether or not she goes through this. Nobody elses.



I don't see what that has to do with anything. Many illegal things have were not in 'existence' when the Constitution was written, does this make them exempt from the it too?

-What I am saying though is that you interpret the constitution as if it specifically was written against abortion by the ammendments you proposed. When they were never meant for anything of that nature.
Edit: TBS' example from the post below is a better one.


Not true as has been obviously pointed out.

Edit: Tell if you do not agree with any of these points and I will quote myself again for you to answer your problem.
1) An unborn baby is a human being.
- An Unborn baby is a fetus not a human being until birth and/or it can live outside of the mother on its own.

2) The fourteenth amendment is not restricted to citizens of the United States.
- It is...here is a copy of it for you just so you can revise this statement.

"Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.


Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.


Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.


Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


3) The fourteenth amendment, since it’s not restricted to citizens of the United Statse, and is extended to people within the jurisdiction of the United States, protected unborn babies in the jurisdiction of the United States.

-Again Look at the ammendment above and tell me where it says it appeals to non-citizens.

4) United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights is in fact 'universal',
meaning it is "Including, relating to, or affecting all members of the class or group under consideration."

-Again, Didn't we talk about this. These rights are based on protecting human beings from unneccessary suffering, etc.

For example:
a) Countries shouldn't enslave and beat their people.
b) people are entitled to certain judicial rights

None of those ...even in the document that you quoted itself (which I will again say that it clearly states born) says anything to the nature of "no abortions are allowed"

5) Since the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights is universal, is applies to even the most innocent and smallest human being, being the unborn babies.

-See above


I think that just about sums up the legal information.


-I think that just sums up my counters.

To Undead cheese: good then that will just prove the difference between you and tipsy. Tipsy is here to debate. I am here to debate. You are here to be what? A Nuisance?
 

CelestialBadger

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Thanks for playing why abortion should be illegal.
I feel cheated. I read your entire post and you never once said why abortion should be illegal. Can you please cite parts of the Constitution that say why abortion should be illegal rather than citing parts of the Constitution that do not say it should be legal?

Yes, maybe Locke said things that would imply that abortion should be illegal. However, as you said "our founding fathers did not have the medical technology to get the knowledge of the biology of unborn babies that we have today." So you can't really claim that Locke argues for illegalizing abortion when he didn't even have a clue as to what abortion was.

And no, it didn't really answer all the questions I had in my post. I asked about the a-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagisaki.
 

Lights

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Did I read in that jumble something about you comparing an unborn fetus to your dog? Are you joking?

Let's go ahead and get a lock on this. Lizard has proved his point that he will only reply to that which he thinks he can counter, and blatantly ignore or dismiss that which he cannot. This isnt debate.. this is a waste of time. People are getting aggravated even though they have won.

There's a whole lot of post that you haven't acknowledged yet, lizard.


As fpr where I stand, look no further than Cheese/Tipsy's posts - they have persuaded me long since. :)


*Edit: Unless Badger brings some fire to the thread?!

gogogo
 

Undead Cheese

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Lizard, how can you be here to debate if you blatantly ignore what the opposing side is trying to say? Tipsy and I make our points, you post your "argument," we tear your argument apart, and then you post the same argument over again as if that somehow makes us wrong. Not only that, but, as Lights said, you only target the points which you feel you can counter, and you ignore anything that you can't. That is not debating. You cannot simply pick and choose which points you feel like addressing. Either you address them all or you concede the points where you may have been wrong.
 

CelestialBadger

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Undead Cheese said:
Lizard, how can you be here to debate if you blatantly ignore what the opposing side is trying to say? Tipsy and I make our points, you post your "argument," we tear your argument apart, and then you post the same argument over again as if that somehow makes us wrong. Not only that, but, as Lights said, you only target the points which you feel you can counter, and you ignore anything that you can't. That is not debating. You cannot simply pick and choose which points you feel like addressing. Either you address them all or you concede the points where you may have been wrong.
The irony is that you completely ignored my post.
 

Tipsy

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Yes the government does consider people/children/baby's that are born from other countries to be citizens. Not unborn babies.
I am talking about people/children/babies from other countries other than the United States so that they would be considered aliens and not be citizens, and [incase you ask] I am not talking about the aliens that applied and became citizens either.

-I gave my argument above
Take a look at the Plyler vs Doe trial which gave aliens protected under the Equal Protection Clause. If you didn't realize, the Equal Protection Clause is "State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." part of Section 1 of the fourteenth amendment, giving people who are not citizens of the United States these rights.

-So do I. And by saying that I take the constitution and say what I want it too you have just been wronged. You said through basis of elimination of the wording of the constitution that it protects unborn fetus's. When in fact. NOWHERE does it ever mention unborn babies/abortions.
Nowhere does it mention adolescence or full grown adults either.

So is my dog. Does that give it human rights?
It doesn't follow all 3 of the statements I gave. It doesn't have 46 human chromosomes.

-Yes, but in the first two trimesters it has very few if any body parts and cannot survive on its own.
This is discrimination which is not allowed under our constitution.

-Aaah but my point is different. I am stating that it is against the constitution to force women to bear the agonizing toll of
a) carrying the fetus
b) Go through the pains of childbirth.
It is at her own "liberty to choose whether or not she goes through this. Nobody elses.
a) Killing a fetus because it is in its mother's womb is discrimination on place of residence.
b) Though we are guaranteed rights by the government, the government can in fact ‘infringe’ upon these as long as both notice is given and it has an opportunity to be heard (the due process part in fourteenth amendment). I don't see how killing an unborn baby has any due process). I explained in point above (Plyler vs Doe trial) why they are protected under the Equation Protection Clause. There is also the argument of 'unrestrained liberty' as put by John Locke. My example such as if I pursue my happiness by killing you (no offense ment) then it is more harmful to have this 'unrestrained liberty' of being able to do whatever I want. Plus there is the fourteenth amendment that talks about the limitations regarding life, liberty, and property. It is just a matter of what do you consider more important, life or unrestrained liberty. If you can choose liberty to kill an unborn baby that should be protected against murder, what makes it so different that you can't choose liberty over life with a person who has already been born.

-Again Look at the ammendment above and tell me where it says it appeals to non-citizens.
The outcome of the Plyler vs Doe trial gave it to them.

-Again, Didn't we talk about this. These rights are based on protecting human beings from unneccessary suffering, etc.
Yet for some reason it doesn't stop the unnecessary murder (which I would consider 'suffering, etc'. You cannot discriminate against them.

For example:
a) Countries shouldn't enslave and beat their people.
b) people are entitled to certain judicial rights
c) The right of all human beings to live, including unborn babies. It says specifically that "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

None of those ...even in the document that you quoted itself (which I will again say that it clearly states born) says anything to the nature of "no abortions are allowed"
Nowhere does it say no genocide is allowed either. Yet, it is assumed because 'everyone' has the right to life and security of person including the smallest and most innocent amongst us.

---
For CB:

I feel cheated. I read your entire post and you never once said why abortion should be illegal. Can you please cite parts of the Constitution that say why abortion should be illegal rather than citing parts of the Constitution that do not say it should be legal?
To put it simply, Section 1 of fourteenth amendment + Plyler vs Doe trial = illegal abortion.

Yes, maybe Locke said things that would imply that abortion should be illegal. However, as you said "our founding fathers did not have the medical technology to get the knowledge of the biology of unborn babies that we have today." So you can't really claim that Locke argues for illegalizing abortion when he didn't even have a clue as to what abortion was.
I said this a few paragraphs up in this post but I will put it here for you too:
Though we are guaranteed rights by the government, the government can in fact ‘infringe’ upon these as long as both notice is given and it has an opportunity to be heard (the due process part in fourteenth amendment). I don't see how killing an unborn baby has any due process).

And no, it didn't really answer all the questions I had in my post. I asked about the a-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagisaki.
How am I supposed to justify the slaughter of people? I still support the United States going back into semi-isolationsist practices and pulling troops back to the United States and not stationed throughout the world. I don't think we ever should have dropped it.
 

CelestialBadger

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To put it simply, Section 1 of fourteenth amendment + Plyler vs Doe trial = illegal abortion.
I can only come to the conclusion that we are reading seperate copies of the 14th amendment. How exactly does section 1 of the 14th amendment make abortion illegal?
the government can in fact ‘infringe’ upon these as long as both notice is given and it has an opportunity to be heard (the due process part in fourteenth amendment). I don't see how killing an unborn baby has any due process).
I think you're misinterpereting this. "Due process of law" refers to the idea that we can't be jailed without being tried. Your comment about "killing an unborn baby has any due process" doesn't even make sense.
How am I supposed to justify the slaughter of people?
Okay, I was just checking. People I've talked to about abortion usually don't see glaring contradictions like that.
 

Lizardbreath

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Undead Cheese said:
Lizard, how can you be here to debate if you blatantly ignore what the opposing side is trying to say? Tipsy and I make our points, you post your "argument," we tear your argument apart, and then you post the same argument over again as if that somehow makes us wrong. Not only that, but, as Lights said, you only target the points which you feel you can counter, and you ignore anything that you can't. That is not debating. You cannot simply pick and choose which points you feel like addressing. Either you address them all or you concede the points where you may have been wrong.
-Yes I must be ignoring your posts when I have quoted and responded to each of them. Gj in showing that you have no clue what you are talking about. Your arguments are that the constitution says that it is illegal to kill a fetus right. When the word fetus is not even mentioned in the constitution. (which you all have failed to realize) And then when I cite sources from the constitution and the U.N. Document that you provide and provide backup via the english dictionary to disprove/approve my argument. You counter with "OMFG YOU DIDN'T PROVE ANYTHING YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE MY POST SAID THE OPPOSITE!!!!" When, in fact, your post completely stretches documents that were written for the sake of people after childbirth. Not before, otherwise it would have been written "we hold these truths too be self-evident that all people/unborn fetus's are created equal" when it is not ever written. As I have said it is an infringement of a women's right too force her to go through labor.
It would be like if the government said you had too gain weight, and take care of something for at least 18 years even if you didn't want too. It violates the constitution on multiple parts.

Edit: And where does it say you can't discriminate something that has no legal rights in the first place Tipsy? I beg you to give me the actual written part of the constitution where it says that.
 

Lizardbreath

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Counter against Griswold vs.Connetticuct
The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution. In varying contexts, the Court or individual Justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right in the First Amendment, in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, in the penumbras of the Bill of Rights, in the Ninth Amendment, or in the concept of liberty guaranteed by the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment. These decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed "fundamental" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty," are included in this guarantee of personal privacy. They also make it clear that the right has some extension to activities relating to marriage, procreation, contraception, family relationships, and child rearing and education.

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. The detriment that the State would impose upon the pregnant woman by denying this choice altogether is apparent. Specific and direct harm medically diagnosable even in early pregnancy may be involved. Maternity, or additional offspring, may force upon the woman a distressful life and future. Psychological harm may be imminent. Mental and physical health may be taxed by child care. There is also the distress, for all concerned, associated with the unwanted child, and there is the problem of bringing a child into a family already unable, psychologically and otherwise, to care for it. In other cases, as in this one, the additional difficulties and continuing stigma of unwed motherhood may be involved. All these are factors the woman and her responsible physician necessarily will consider in consultation.

On the basis of elements such as these, appellant and some amici argue that the woman's right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses. With this we do not agree. Appellant's arguments that Texas either has no valid interest at all in regulating the abortion decision, or no interest strong enough to support any limitation upon the woman's sole determination, are unpersuasive. The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past.

We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.

Where certain "fundamental rights" are involved, the Court has held that regulation limiting these rights may be justified only by a "compelling state interest," and that legislative enactments must be narrowly drawn to express only the legitimate state interests at stake. (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/griswold.html)
 

Lizardbreath

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Further,
The Constitution does not define "person" in so many words. Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment contains three references to "person." The first, in defining "citizens," speaks of "persons born or naturalized in the United States." The word also appears both in the Due Process Clause and in the Equal Protection Clause. "Person" is used in other places in the Constitution: in the listing of qualifications for Representatives and Senators, Art. I, § 2, cl. 2, and § 3, cl. 3; in the Apportionment Clause, Art. I, § 2, cl. 3; in the Migration and Importation provision, Art. I, § 9, cl. 1; in the Emolument Clause, Art. I, § 9, cl. 8; in the Electors provisions, Art. II, § 1, cl. 2, and the superseded cl. 3; in the provision outlining qualifications for the office of President, Art. II, § 1, cl. 5; in the Extradition provisions, Art. IV, § 2, cl. 2, and the superseded Fugitive Slave Clause 3; and in the Fifth, Twelfth, and Twenty-second Amendments, as well as in §§ 2 and 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. But in nearly all these instances, the use of the word is such that it has application only postnatally. None indicates, with any assurance, that it has any possible pre-natal application.

Just for more fun to disprove your argument Plyer vs. Doe was based against illegal immigrants. Not Prenatal rights in the least bit.

In considering this motion, the District Court made extensive findings of fact. The court found that neither § 21.031 nor the School District policy implementing it had "either the purpose or effect of keeping illegal aliens out of the State of Texas." Respecting defendants' further claim that § 21.031 was simply a financial measure designed to avoid a drain on the State's fisc, the court recognized that the increases in population resulting from the immigration of Mexican nationals into the United States had created problems for the public schools of the State, and that these problems were exacerbated by the special educational needs of immigrant Mexican children. The court noted, however, that the increase in school enrollment was primarily attributable to the admission of children who were legal residents. It also found that while the "exclusion of all undocumented children from the public schools in Texas would eventually result in economies at some level," funding from both the State and Federal Governments was based primarily on the number of children enrolled. In net effect then, barring undocumented children from the schools would save money, but it would "not necessarily" improve "the quality of education." The court further observed that the impact of § 21.031 was borne primarily by a very small subclass of illegal aliens, "entire families who have migrated illegally and -- for all practical purposes -- permanently to the United States." Finally, the court noted that under current laws and practices "the illegal alien of today may well be the legal alien of tomorrow," and that without an education, these undocumented children, "[already] disadvantaged as a result of poverty, lack of English-speaking ability, and undeniable racial prejudices, . . . will become permanently locked into the lowest socio-economic class."

The District Court held that illegal aliens were entitled to the protection of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and that § 21.031 violated that Clause. Suggesting that "the state's exclusion of undocumented children from its public schools . . . may well be the type of invidiously motivated state action for which the suspect classification doctrine was designed," the court held that it was unnecessary to decide whether the statute would survive a "strict scrutiny" analysis because, in any event, the discrimination embodied in the statute was not supported by a rational basis.
(http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~bjordan/PlylervDoe.html)



And again I will further scrutinize some more of your defense.

The fourth ammendment was protection from unneccessary searches...nothing at all too do with this particular issue. Read.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


And to further some more issues with the ninth ammendment

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

This ammendment was included to insure that any powers not given to the government were then given to the people. Thus controlling the amount of power the federal government had to regulate.

" NINTH AMENDMENT

__________

UNENUMERATED RIGHTS

[[Page 1503]]



The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

RIGHTS RETAINED BY THE PEOPLE

Aside from contending that a bill of rights was unnecessary, the
Federalists responded to those opposing ratification of the Constitution
because of the lack of a declaration of fundamental rights by arguing
that inasmuch as it would be impossible to list all rights it would be
dangerous to list some because there would be those who would seize on
the absence of the omitted rights to assert that government was
unrestrained as to those.\1\ Madison adverted to this argument in
presenting his proposed amendments to the House of Representatives. ``It
has been objected also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating
particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those
rights which were not placed in that enumeration; and it might follow by
implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended
to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were
consequently insecure. This is one of the most plausible arguments I
have ever heard against the admission of a bill of rights into this
system; but, I conceive, that it may be guarded against. I have
attempted it, as gentlemen may see by turning to the last clause of the
fourth resolution.''\2\ It is clear from its text and from Madison's
statement that the Amendment states but a rule of construction, making
clear that a Bill of Rights might not by implication be taken to
increase the powers of the national government in areas

[[Page 1504]]
not enumerated, and that it does not contain within itself any guarantee
of a right or a proscription of an infringement.\3\ Recently, however,
the Amendment has been construed to be positive affirmation of the
existence of rights which are not enumerated but which are nonetheless
protected by other provisions.

\1\The Federalist No. 84 (Modern Library ed. 1937).
\2\1 Annals of Congress 439 (1789). Earlier, Madison had written
to Jefferson: ``My own opinion has always been in favor of a bill of
rights; provided it be so framed as not to imply powers not meant to be
included in the enumeration. . . . I have not viewed it in an important
light--1. because I conceive that in a certain degree . . . the rights
in question are reserved by the manner in which the federal powers are
granted. 2. because there is great reason to fear that a positive
declaration of some of the most essential rights could not be obtained
in the requisite latitude. I am sure that the rights of conscience in
particular, if submitted to public definition would be narrowed much
more than they are likely ever to be by an assumed power.'' 5 Writings
of James Madison, 271-72 (G. Hunt ed. 1904). See also 3 J. Story,
Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States 1898 (1833).
\3\To some extent, the Ninth and Tenth Amendments overlap with
respect to the question of unenumerated powers, one of the two concerns
expressed by Madison, more clearly in his letter to Jefferson but also
present in his introductory speech. Supra, n.2 and accompanying text." (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt9.html)

Again Might I emphasize my use of sources/constitutional arguments/supreme court decisions.
Edit:I will again say Undeadcheese that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Edit:I will also further ask if you are going to site a court case that you actually fully read what the case is about instead of deciding on your own based on a one paragraph description you got out of some book. Do the research and back it up with real facts. Don't stretch the truth too something it is not. As I have clearly stated in the above arguments all of your ammendment issues/court cases which you have brought up have been shot down and will now be considered null and void. Thank you. Have a nice day.

Good ****ing Night
 
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