Otmorosok and Guru

[Second Hand Death]

Originally posted by:ORC-r0x0r-ROC
hitler would of delclared war on america sooner or later

Yes he would have, but he wouldn't of done so until Britain was on the brink of defeat or already defeated and all he had to worry about was Russia, which probably would not of been able to destroy the German forces.

how do you know that japan wouldnt of been allied with germany anyway

They would have. Germany had pretty strong ties to Japan.

where.. russian lost about 70,000 taking the capital of the strongest country in the world

They were not the strongest country in the world at that point.

the russians didnt prepare for war for years.. they had it forced onto them, stalin couldnt believe germany was attacking them.

That is complete bull. Hitler hated Communists and Stalin knew that he would attack them soon, it was only a matter of time.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

soon? there were a 10 year nazi-soviet nonagression treaty... stalin hesitated for days because he couldnt believe the reports of hitlers army massing on the border.. look it up if you dont believe me(yes it was a matter of time but stalin was expecting a lot longer than that so he had no time to REALLY prepare. GERMANY WAS the strongest country at the time(but late on japan was stronger). guru russia isnt stupid for making one mistake america has made loads... they could of insteading of rushing the beachead just pounded the coast for days...For inexplicable reasons, the U.S. did not arm the ships, nor provide escorts or air cover, nor organize convoys along the Atlantic or Gulf Coasts or in the Caribbean. Fleet Admiral Ernest J. King was responsible for this inaction. The U.S. Government did not order a blackout of seacoast cities until June 1942, leaving ships silhouetted against the shoreline. Allied ships were "sitting ducks" for the well-armed U-Boats lurking in U.S. coastal waters. U.S. beaches soon became littered with bodies and burned-out ships.

 

[Second Hand Death]

Originally posted by:ORC-r0x0r-ROC
GERMANY WAS the strongest country at the time.

They were when they first started the war, but not after the first few months of 1943, at that time the German Army started to lose its ground and its army was in the process of being decimated.

For inexplicable reasons, the U.S. did not arm the ships, nor provide escorts or air cover, nor organize convoys along the Atlantic or Gulf Coasts or in the Caribbean. Fleet Admiral Ernest J. King was responsible for this inaction.

Yet, he was one of the most capable Fleet Admirals the U.S has ever seen. He did not do those things listed above because he chose to focus more on the War with Japan. He thought that the fight against Japan was more important than the Navy operations in the Pacific. Even if it cost the lives of seamen in the Atlantic it helped to subdue Japan's expansion and strengthened the Pacific Fleet immensely.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

but if your thinking in terms of captital city how would the army be like in berlin.. increased because losing ground.. more of a risk of being attacked.. i think the diffculty of taking the capital wouldnt of changed much.. maybe more fortifications?... it really doesnt take much effort to organise a convoy..a couple of spare planes wouldnt hurt it wouldnt really distract him from the job at hand if the ships were going to be destroyed why send them??

 

[Second Hand Death]

it really doesnt take much effort to organise a convoy..a couple of spare planes wouldnt hurt it wouldnt really distract him from the job at hand if the ships were going to be destroyed why send them??

But with a convoy the German U-Boats have a number of ships cruising at a low speed so the U-Boats could follow the convoy and report the convoy's course so other German units would be able to intercept it. King also thought it would be better to save the ships to protect troop transports than to have them on convoys.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

troops cant fight without supplies its just stupid not to protect them.... if you had a good convoy you wont have to worry about other german units.. its not like they didnt have enough ships to support both

 

[Second Hand Death]

A convoy would have to go the speed of the slowest ship and the German U-Boats could easily follow the ships and reports its course so that a larger group could take it out. The American Fleet in the Atlantic did not number a lot since more ships went to the Pacific Fleet so the Atlantic had an extremely limited amount of ships it could use.

 

[Guru]

Originally posted by ORC-r0x0r-ROC
Wrong... how can u be wrong in this you ****ing dumnshit its interpretation.. hitler would of delclared war on america sooner or later and how do you know that japan wouldnt of been allied with germany anyway.. i cant believe you can call russia stupid remember pearl habour..2,500 Americans were killed and 1,600 wounded **** knows how many ships and planes were destroyed... and you shot down about 7 outdated japanese aircraft.. where.. russian lost about 70,000 taking the capital of the strongest country in the world.. they were extremely out gunned its what they HAD to do.. there generals wernt sat all cosey in some remote place radioing orders.. the generals were up front fighting with his men if his men died so did he.. the russians didnt prepare for war for years.. they had it forced onto them, stalin couldnt believe germany was attacking them. 10 year agreement... they had good stuff just not enough to go around.

By the time Hitler declared war on the US, we would have had atomic bombs. There is no way he would keep fighting while A-bombs are dropping on Germany.

How was Pearl Harbor stupidity? Where was the tactical mistake? Please tell me how we could have had fewer causualties. Oh wait, we couldnt...because we on the offensive or a position where doing one thing instead of another would have brought different outcome you dumbass.

suprise???? lol a load of out dated japanese planes fly over the ocean and its a suprise?? Attacking a city wasnt.... so? isnt that sorta in russia's favour. how did russia know how long the allies were going to be?? how did russia know that if they waited it would turn out for the best? how did russia know berlin wasnt going to be strenthened?.. quicker is better generally.. general custer STUPIDLY charged the indians at the battle of little big horn... Stalin wasnt as stupid as that. if they did wait there would be more people to fight... but there would be more people to die..

Yea, I would say was considered a surprise attack. If you think it wasn't, your truly a dumbass.

First of all, know one flew across the ocean dumbshit. They launched fighters loaded with bombs and torpedos a few miles off sure on sunday (most people were just getting home from church).

How did Russia know where the allies where? They were allies dumbass. They communicate with each other.

FYI, General Paton led his men on the front lines, Russians on the other hand, they sat in the office.

Also, Stalin knew Germany was going to invade. However, he thought they would wait until they had defeated France and Great Britain. When France fell in 1940, he thought he would attack in the summer of 1941. Stalin was even informed by his intelligence about Barbarossa, however he was to stubborn to believe it. The surprise was only a surprise because of Stalins stupidity.


What does General Custard have to do with WWII? Stop being such a dumbshit and stick to our topic. Also, I don't think General Custard lost 70,000 men. Do you realize how many people that is?

Please shut up, you obviously know nothing about history or war.

You mock the russians but the american soilders would of thanked them for saving the from fighting another hard battle.. Guru cant even spell city or japanese right what "comon" sense does he have?

Your in no position to talk about typos. You spelt "common, soldiers, declared, cozy, and weren't wrong. "fly" should have been past tense. Your capitalization is terrible, so is your sentance structure and puncutation. Not to mention just about everything you said was wrong.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

well yet again america are letting the mentally disabled roam the net.

I really give a rats about puntuation on a forum do i need to display every word that you have ever spelt wrong?, you are a ****ing retard to even suggest that america would A) have enough time to build enough bombs to destroy all of asia and europe and B) even consider bombing europe, they bombed japan because it was a island away from the mainland. churchchill wouldnt even consider letting america drop a atomic bomb any way near europe.

Pearl habour is considered 1 of the biggest mistakes of US history (and you say it was a sunday for a excuse) yeesh america HAD to be ****ing stupid not to notice dozens of planes... america was asleep in a world war.. you cant realy give me a reason for anything you just say something ****ing idiotic like "Yea, I would say was considered a surprise attack. If you think it wasn't, your truly a dumbass."

You barely managed to mention 1 general that fought with his men but he probaly did stay WAY behind the rest. Remember it was WW2 so people didnt really have mobile phones, the russian generals had to be there because there was no other way of communicating with thier own men, let alone allies and the allies didnt know if it would take a day or a week to get there.

STALIN had a non-aggression pact with the germans so it was a shock when stalin first got reports of barbarossa."The surprise was only a surprise because of Stalins stupidity." i could say the same thing about america.

All i was saying is that stalin wasnt as dumb as custard.. custard comitted suicide and took 250 men with him instead of waiting for back up... they thought because they had guns they could beat 1000s of "savages" typical ****y yank mistake

 

[Guru]

Originally posted by ORC-r0x0r-ROC
well yet again america are letting the mentally disabled roam the net.

Whats the matter kid? You got offended that you were wrong so you resort to immature flaming? Reeaaalll mature, kid.

I really give a rats about puntuation on a forum do i need to display every word that you have ever spelt wrong?, you are a ****ing retard to even suggest that america would A) have enough time to build enough bombs to destroy all of asia and europe and B) even consider bombing europe, they bombed japan because it was a island away from the mainland. churchchill wouldnt even consider letting america drop a atomic bomb any way near europe.

Who's destroying all of Asia and Europe? Sheesh your stupid. Put one on Berlin, and another on another big citry, and Germany is out. It doesn't take a lot of bombs, and it doesn't take that long to make an atom bomb.

Also, Churchill does not have the authority to tell America what they can and can't do. What was Churchill going to do if America bombed Germany anyway? Declare war on them? But, Churchill would not have a problem with them A-bombing Germany. You are way too ignorant, kid. The explosion of the bombs took out everything in a 3-mile radius, dropping one on a few German targets does not damage the rest of Europe. Don't try to talk about things you know nothing about, kid.

And what does Japan being away from the mainland have anything to do with anything? Once again, I'm going to have to say your an idiot.

Pearl habour is considered 1 of the biggest mistakes of US history (and you say it was a sunday for a excuse) yeesh america HAD to be ****ing stupid not to notice dozens of planes... america was asleep in a world war.. you cant realy give me a reason for anything you just say something ****ing idiotic like "Yea, I would say was considered a surprise attack. If you think it wasn't, your truly a dumbass."

Pearl Harbor was considered one of the biggest tragedys in US history, not mistakes. By the time the United States realized the planes, it was too late. There were no mistakes being made accountable for the tragedy.

You want a reason? BECAUSE JAPAN TOOK AMERICA BY SURPRISE. Ask any historian you would like. The fact that you can't accept the truth shows you are a dumbass. Thats why. Happy?

You barely managed to mention 1 general that fought with his men but he probaly did stay WAY behind the rest. Remember it was WW2 so people didnt really have mobile phones, the russian generals had to be there because there was no other way of communicating with thier own men, let alone allies and the allies didnt know if it would take a day or a week to get there.

That's one more mentioned than you did. Don't you find what you said a little hypocritical?

They had telegrams, and could comunicate very well, had they needed too.

STALIN had a non-aggression pact with the germans so it was a shock when stalin first got reports of barbarossa."The surprise was only a surprise because of Stalins stupidity." i could say the same thing about america.

Yes, they had a non aggression pact. However, his intellegenced warned him over and over again about barbarossa. It was his stupidity that failed to realize what was really happening.

All i was saying is that stalin wasnt as dumb as custard.. custard comitted suicide and took 250 men with him instead of waiting for back up... they thought because they had guns they could beat 1000s of "savages" typical ****y yank mistake

The fact you even try to compare a blunder of 250 men to that of 70,000 men only supports the statement that you are a dumbass.

Once again, everything you said, was, well, wrong.

 

[Kuzmich]

First, Guru try to speak the truth at leat once, second, yes Stalin was an idiot, he didn't care about Russia he cared about feeding his own fat ass, he wasnt even Russian he was Georgian. US would fight Germany anyway, cause Germany would invade US, and Germans were researching nukes too. Still Russia took Berlin and we ended the war with Germany, we also killed most Germans and destroyed most of their army, allies were hit with just a small portion of what we faced, not even half. Next time i will be able to post is on weekend so you have time to think on your reply. Dude grow the **** up!

 

[Guru]

Originally posted by Otmorosok
First, Guru try to speak the truth at leat once, second, yes Stalin was an idiot, he didn't care about Russia he cared about feeding his own fat ass, he wasnt even Russian he was Georgian. US would fight Germany anyway, cause Germany would invade US, and Germans were researching nukes too. Still Russia took Berlin and we ended the war with Germany, we also killed most Germans and destroyed most of their army, allies were hit with just a small portion of what we faced, not even half. Next time i will be able to post is on weekend so you have time to think on your reply. Dude grow the **** up!

You think Russia is credited with the ending of WWII? Get clue. It is obvious the ending of it was because of both Russia and the Allies. How you can deny that is funny...not to mention the fact that Russia would have been toast with out the help of the US. Maybe before the weekend you will read a history book kid.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

i just found something out... the british made a plane in 1957 which is faster than the jsf. Otto is right that they took the biggest hit, he never denyed that the allies were a big part of the war. Britain took the most hits and over a larger period than any other of the allies they could of surrendered easily but they braved on, eventually with the help of the other allies defeated the Germans, it takes some courage and patriotism to accomplish that but im not going to go on about it forever.... like you 2

 

[Lights]

Originally posted by ORC-r0x0r-ROC


Pearl habour is considered 1 of the biggest mistakes of US history (and you say it was a sunday for a excuse) yeesh america HAD to be ****ing stupid not to notice dozens of planes... america was asleep in a world war.. you cant realy give me a reason for anything you just say something ****ing idiotic like "Yea, I would say was considered a surprise attack. If you think it wasn't, your truly a dumbass."

Im just going to mention one thing. Yes, it was sad that they hit us. Was it a mistake? Uhh, no. Before that point, we were not even at war yet. What they did was wrong, much more wrong than dropping an A-bomb.

We couldnt see them, NO ONE could. The technology was not available in those days, to see out in the middle of the ocean. They were outside of our view, right up until they hit us. Which, by the way, was a Sunday. It was very early in the morning, and most people were still asleep. There was no reason for them to be up; WE WERE AT PORT AND WERE NOT EVEN AT WAR!

 

[Guru]

Originally posted by ORC-r0x0r-ROC
i just found something out... the british made a plane in 1957 which is faster than the jsf. Otto is right that they took the biggest hit, he never denyed that the allies were a big part of the war. Britain took the most hits and over a larger period than any other of the allies they could of surrendered easily but they braved on, eventually with the help of the other allies defeated the Germans, it takes some courage and patriotism to accomplish that but im not going to go on about it forever.... like you 2

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but if we are talking about fastest planes, the US has the fastest planes in the world (and they're stealth). Not to mention we are developing a plane that will fly at around 7 mac

 

[amrtin77]

Originally posted by Lights
Im just going to mention one thing. Yes, it was sad that they hit us. Was it a mistake? Uhh, no. Before that point, we were not even at war yet. What they did was wrong, much more wrong than dropping an A-bomb.

We couldnt see them, NO ONE could. The technology was not available in those days, to see out in the middle of the ocean. They were outside of our view, right up until they hit us. Which, by the way, was a Sunday. It was very early in the morning, and most people were still asleep. There was no reason for them to be up; WE WERE AT PORT AND WERE NOT EVEN AT WAR!

no lights, they attacked our military. they did a beautiful job of stayin invisible right up till they hit us early sunday without a declaration of war... strategical genius. they had a cause and they used the ultimate "if all else fails" method to get what they wanted. they made war. there is no shame in what they did to us, but what they did to chineese civilians was horrible.

 

[Guru]

Originally posted by amrtin77
no lights, they attacked our military. they did a beautiful job of stayin invisible right up till they hit us early sunday without a declaration of war... strategical genius. they had a cause and they used the ultimate "if all else fails" method to get what they wanted. they made war. there is no shame in what they did to us, but what they did to chineese civilians was horrible.

I think what lights is saying is that the attack wasn't a mistake on our part, and there was little that could be done to have prevented it.

And, I wouldn't say strategical genius. In fact, for Japan it was a mistake. They had captured a ton of territory, and if they had not attacked Pearl Harbor, they could have kept it. Plus, the operation was not as succesful as it could have been. They had intended for the entire pacific fleet to be at bay - but little did they know the US carriers were at sea. Plus, the US immidiate retaliation was just about as devastating, just not as famous.

 

[amrtin77]

Originally posted by Guru
I think what lights is saying is that the attack wasn't a mistake on our part, and there was little that could be done to have prevented it.

And, I wouldn't say strategical genius. In fact, for Japan it was a mistake. They had captured a ton of territory, and if they had not attacked Pearl Harbor, they could have kept it. Plus, the operation was not as succesful as it could have been. They had intended for the entire pacific fleet to be at bay - but little did they know the US carriers were at sea. Plus, the US immidiate retaliation was just about as devastating, just not as famous.

i agree there is not much we could do- techknowledgy was not advanced enough to have any idea where the japaneese fleet was.

your right, attacking us was stupid and possibly cost the germans AND japan the war.

BUT

if they were going to attack us, they did it the smartest and most efficient way possible. that raid was smart, and to be "honorable" and declare war would have had worse results for them. we cannot blame them at all, its not like they bombed a bunch of civilians just for the hell of it, they hit our navy.

 

[Guru]

Originally posted by amrtin77

if they were going to attack us, they did it the smartest and most efficient way possible. that raid was smart, and to be "honorable" and declare war would have had worse results for them. we cannot blame them at all, its not like they bombed a bunch of civilians just for the hell of it, they hit our navy.

That is true, it was a probably the best target.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Originally posted by amrtin77
i agree there is not much we could do- techknowledgy was not advanced enough to have any idea where the japaneese fleet was.

your right, attacking us was stupid and possibly cost the germans AND japan the war.

BUT

if they were going to attack us, they did it the smartest and most efficient way possible. that raid was smart, and to be "honorable" and declare war would have had worse results for them. we cannot blame them at all, its not like they bombed a bunch of civilians just for the hell of it, they hit our navy.

They did declare war, before the attack there was a mix up. The declaration of war was sent before the attack but they only got the message after the attack i dont really have details of the "mix up" look that up yourself i can be arsed .

I was basically saying that the speed of theese planes are nothing new, we built one in the 50s that is faster than a lot of modern ones EG. f-15 and joint strike fighter.

no lights, they attacked our military. they did a beautiful job of stayin invisible right up till they hit us early sunday without a declaration of war... strategical genius. they had a cause and they used the ultimate "if all else fails" method to get what they wanted. they made war. there is no shame in what they did to us, but what they did to chineese civilians was horrible

I guess they were lucky that america was all asleep at war time... i would call sending a load of outdated planes to attack a habour a tatical "genious"

yea it is realy bad what they did to them poor civilians. It was 'revenge' against Nanjing for holding out for months against the japaneese but no reasons exist for what they did. Heres a link read it through and theres another reason the hate the yanks:http://www.ratatak.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=52 Heres a quote: "CONCLUSION

Japan is currently a member of the United Nations and in spite of this - the WORST war atrocity in living history - they have never officially apologised to China. Most Japanese of our generation are equally horrified by the behavior of their countrymen in Nanjing yet the Japanese government stays silent.

What does this say about a country that values honour above all else?"