Originally posted by cxoli
It took me a long time to type up all of this, so you better read it, Lights >_< As far as I'm concerned, you're really the only person I'm debating with now, since this doesn't really matter to anyone else as they're mainly athiest/agnostic. What follows is only going to matter to those who actually believe in the Christian God. (Also, sorry it took me so long to respond...I've been gone for the past week.)
It seems I am the one who must apologize now. As luck would have it, my lovely computer crashed due to a virus of some sort. It took a few days until someone could come and save me.
I am back now, hopefully for good.
Let me get back into the mindset by stating where it is that I stand and where what I am trying to show you stands. Predestination does not contradict Christianity in any way. It is not true to say that if you believe in predestination you are somehow mistaken and are wrong; everything I am about to tell you fits perfectly within the idea of this religion. It is merely what they call the "Reformed theology" of the Christian doctrine. It is not Calvinism, though it does go along the lines of it.
The reason why this(predestination) is why I cant agree with Christianity is not because of contradiction, but because it is the
truth. Lets get started, shall we.
God is God because he knows what's going to happen. I don't see how, out of that, you get the statement that he makes us do certain things. Like I said before, God may have the power
to directly change our lives, but that doesn't necessarily mean he exercises that power. Free will is a gift. It's the ability to change yourself in whatever way you see fit. God may see the future, but I don't think we're all just his puppets. He might have had certain intentions, but I doubt he forces us to follow the path that he intended. If he had, then we would all be worshipping him right now, and we would all believe exactly the same things and would not be having this discussion in the first place.
I wish I had the time to type and tell you everything that I have learned. Every statement you make, I know the answer to. It would just take pages upon pages upon pages to do it.
There are many views of predestination, many different people look at it through a different light. Here's the most popular:
1. A-------B: The view that God pus you where you are and knows where you are going to go. But in between that, you have free run of the place. You can do whatever you so desire, but in the end you will do as
God desires.
2. Movie Script: The idea that God has layed everything out for you. Your every choice and decision has already been made an eternity ago. You are just acting out a script.
On the surface, these look very similar and in a sense they are. But at the same time they are much different. The first option, God doesnt do much. He says, "Ok. You are going to choose me and you arent. Later." He doesnt do much planning, it just happens as he wills. They will inevitably choose him. This view has problems. It is truth that Man will
not seek after God alone (I would go into detail if I could..too long). They will only do so with the intervention of God himself; He must act in their lives to make them choose him. This is why this view wont work. Without God actively in their lives, helping them make choices; they wouldnt choose him.
As you already know, I believe in what some call a "movie script" I know it sounds tacky and what-not, but it is more or less true. He must be active in our lives (By that I mean he
was active when he set the stage for our lives. His work has already been done.) For us to choose him. Man is sinful by nature, we will not choose God alone. He picks us. He picked those He wanted long ago. All the rest of us have been condemned to Hell since week one. Which sucks and why I cant agree with this ((More detail later)).
Don't worry, I won't use either of those cop-outs. I would rather back up what I say with my own beliefs and proofs than with vague statements like those.
For which I thank you.
God knew who would go to Heaven and who would go to Hell, but I don't think he created those who were doomed to burn in Hell as inferior, or even with that intention. I guess the way I would put it is that the opposite to God, who is the key to Heaven, is Satan, who is the path to Hell. It sounds cliche, but I think it's true. All people are created equal, with the same chances for going either way, but some choose to follow God and some choose not to. That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't show mercy to everyone.
Here you are mistaken. We dont "choose" God, he "chooses" us. We will
not choose him alone. We wont. It is even Biblical..
"There is none who seeks after God."
Romans 3:11b
For one to get to Heaven, he must be "elected" by God; chosen by the Creator. In other words, He made us all and then decided to save a few. Its that simple. There is no way around it. People werent created equal, God basically played favorites by choosing to save a few. All the rest of us are doomed.
Now I'll respond to the verses you gave, even though I hate backing up my opinions with statements from the Bible.
Why's that?
The way I interpret this is simply that God is glorifying the people who chose him over Satan -- the people who are following his intended purpose instead of choosing to follow the Devil. You'll note how the following verses say that nothing can separate us from God's love, which I think is saying that he'll have mercy on you whether you love him or not. It doesn't say anything about sending anyone to Hell.
We are
all condemned to Hell. That is believed by every Christian domination you will find. We were all doomed and Christ died for us. Even so, that doesnt change the fact that most lives will be in Hell after Judgement Day. For some reason unknown to me or anyone, God will not save everyone. He has the power too, but will not. If he is truly God, he could make every person alive become so religious it would be a joke. He doesnt. He wont. Apparently He has chosen to allow His creations to burn. Its not that He cant...
It's saying how before he created the world, God decided to create us in his image, so that we would be "holy and blameless before him." However, in Genesis 6 it says how "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." So basically, we're like lost sheep who have strayed off the path. This may not have been his original intent, but it's what happened, and I'd say you'd need free will for that to be possible. It still doesn't say anything about people being condemned to Hell, and it doesn't really go against the concept of free will.
Slow down. If something didnt go according to Gods plan, we might as well stop this conversation now and never look at Christianity again. No, everything is going according to His plan. God is perfect in every way, he doesnt make mistakes and things do not go a way he didnt make them.
Of course we are condemned. That is so obviously the truth. Think about it. If we do not become "saved" we will go to Hell. We have to say a pray and believe, yadda-yadda, or off to Hell we go. In reality we are guilty until made innocent. Without action, we are going to Hell. We are condemned until, by way of Christ, that condemnation is lifted.
I know I havent said anything about free will yet, I am trying to bring it back.
So it's saying, once again, that God created us in his image for his glory. Still doesn't say we're living up to his expectations. Still doesn't disprove free will.
Let me attempt now to bring this together...
We have decided that man is wicked by nature and will not choose Christ on his own accord, right? And that we will go to Hell unless God chooses us (Remember we have to be saved, by "asking God into our heart", but we will not do that unless God actively works in our heart, or chooses to do so by specifically choosing us)? I hope so. It is all true Biblically, which is the very essence of the Christian religion. There only truth we have.
Now. Because of all this... we do not have free will.
We will not "choose" God of our own free will because we wont, we are wicked. Gods will is done if we do so. Beyond that, we will not do anything without God already knowing what we are going to do. He knows what we will do because He has already "written" out our lives (We are acting out a movie script.
). How could we do something without God already knowing? He
must know if He is God. If He already knows, then we must do it; we dont have a choice or a free will to choose. If we did, God wouldnt, by definition, be God.
There are also Biblical references that could be used to back up what I'm saying:
Matthew 19:25-26 and Mark 13:20 say how Jesus died to save us and through God, it is possible for everyone to be saved.
Ahh yes, the very same thought I had. The answer is simple, well sort of. Its all about perspective. There is two different perspectives: Mans and Gods.
By mans perspective, yes anyone can be saved. How could we possibly know who God has chosen and who he has rejected? We cant. Christians must continue to share the Word. To seek out who God has choosen. For all we know
anyone can be saved, we dont have all-knowing power.
By Gods perspective, the one that matters, not everyone can be saved. Who has and who hasnt has already been decided. He knows billions of people will go to Hell.
