Abortion

[JARGON]

To all you people who writes in this thread. It is quite simple. You would not be writing here if you were aborted. Imagine what those aborted people would say if they have a say on this. Do you think they would wish not to exist at all. Life is not that easy, yes, but it is up to them to make it wonderful. The choice is always on them as individuals. If they let time pass without doing nothing then life would truly be miserable. But if they take chances and succeeds look at where they could be. Life is a gift and living should be a pleasure not a nightmare. It is not the fault of the unborn child to be created in a mother's womb. Why blame him??? It is a shame thinking that what was created should be uncreated just because it is unwanted (are they monster to be killed, I dont think so). We should be focusing more on how to help those poor mothers than agreeing with them who wants to forget that these things ever happened to them. Think my dear friends think. Would you rather not be here?

 

[amrtin77]

theyll never know anything of existance, so they dont have to worry bout that. i wouldnt give a damn if i wasnt created... why? because i wouldnt even know. i wouldnt exist.

what makes life good? knowing you exist, knowing that it is good. if your not even existing or thinking yet, how can you be "killed"?

if a woman isnt ready for a child, let her abort the baby. as long as its not super late in the pregnancy..

 

[JARGON]

To amrtin77, by the sound of this you looked like you have had an abortion. You say these things only because you are here and he is not. Imagine you do not exist. Are you happy for not existing? You’ll ask how can I be happy if I’m not existing then that answers you’re question. A child is conceived (not born) upon the fusion of a father’s sperm and a mother’s egg cell there’s no such thing as super late. He may not have the parts yet still he is conceived. A baby born on this world does not know what is and what is not either, yet you see in him whether he is happy or not. Show him hatred and you’ll see he is hated. Show him love and you'll see he is loved. Do you believe you have a soul? Then you'll know he knows he was not given a chance to exist. If a woman is not ready to become a mother then let her not be a mother. I believe that we should think first before we do and then take pleasure or suffer from consequences we go through. Lets not take others with us if it meant hurting them in the process. It’s not their fault it is ours.

 

[KillThePreppies]

Hey, total newb, nice title. How about plugging up your bleeding heart long enough to see the social implications of 12 million extra children (10 million American) every year? Stupid people need to stop breeding, but short of mass moronocide, the only alternatives we have are birth control and abortion. Obviously the first choice is preferable, but we cannot have 50 bazzillion unwanted children who arent adopted and become homeless people living in the ghetto learning to kill and hate the rich because in their life no one loved them and they haven't got the neccessary education or social skills to live a healthy life. It's a recipe for anarchy.

 

[WilliamDell]

Abortion is a very sensitive issue to many people, as are many of the subjects discussed on this forum and you can sense the deep feelings and attitudes people have on these issues. As for me, I'm not totally sure what to think, I'm almost torn apart by this issue. As cort said,"Nothing is simple when it comes to humans," and that about sums up why this issue tears me apart. There are so many sides to examine this issue from it is almost as mind boggling as dealing with the speed of light question or talking about the existence of God.

I don't have a firm for or against answer for this topic. I can see the reasons for it and I can agree on why it has its purpose, and I can also see why it can be seen as bad. Yes abortion can save the mother not just if the pregnacy is hurting her but also if the baby will be too much of a burden financially, mentally, or whatever else. Adoption may be an option and yes there are flaws. One thing I'll say that I base partly from George Carlin about abortion is that many pro-life people and Republicans are hypocrites in that pro-life people will bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors which is anti-life and Republicans are often times for the military and war (example Bush) and making abortion illegal gives them more bodies for troops but the thing is these people will fight for the baby to be born but once it's born they are like "you're on your own," plus the military in itself is not really pro-life in that war takes lives :-/.

If those people are so concerned about abortions, they can go ahead and support the "unwanted" babies themselves with their money, time, and "love." Anyways, that stuff annoys me so much. Another issue that people bring up is the time we define when life begins for a fetus or infant or whatever. Does it begin when the zygote is formed or when fertilization occurs? That can be debated all day long and it's hard to draw a line since so many factors and opinions can be made to define where the line is. But as was said earlier, nothing is that simple with humans. I know, here's a radical idea I just came up with, if no one wants to support the babies, then don't abort them, just make a power source like they had in The Matrix and all of our problems will be solved in that case even though that in itself brings up many ethical questions too, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone make that argument (mainly because it seems inhumane). Don't get mad at me for saying that, I just had that idea randomly and if you think about it that DOES solve the problem of killing them.

Anyways, I lost my line of thinking just now because I started talking to a friend online after that last sentence so maybe I'll finish what I was going to say later.

 

[l33t 0n3]

My conclusion on abortion:

If you want to have sex, wear a freaking rubber. If you become pregnant, 99.99% of the time it is your own fault. It's not that hard of a concept to most of the retards out there. If you really don't want to use rubbers, get on birth control and don't take antibiotics.. People in this world act and then complain about and avoid the concequences. You had sex with out a rubber, or took antibitoics while on birth control. Don't kill a freaking baby over it; it's your own damned fault.

 

[minny]

I want to hear a girls opinion on this

 

[Undead Cheese]

I assume that first line, you meant to put Adoption rather than abortion.

Yes, I meant adoption. :rolleyes

Try explaining that to people in third world countries. They're completely impoverished and have no hopes of changing the state of life for them under current situations. Try explaining that to a village of people that live with no clean water. People that have no other choice.

I'm talking about changing policy in the United States, not third world countries.

You seem to be under the impression that no matter what the situation is, it's as easy as making a simple decision.

It is... When you do something that has risks involved you accept the consequences of your actions.

Nothing is simple when it comes to humans. Who are you to judge what another human being is allowed to do?

Considering the United States isn't an anarchy, there will always be laws limiting your freedoms so they do not infringe on the rights of someone else. Having sex and then aborting the baby is like playing Russian roulette with another person, except instead of aiming the gun at you when it's your turn to pull the trigger you aim it at a random defenseless person.

As for adoption, none of us have any say whatsoever concerning whether someone should be put into a state-run facility, unless you come from one. Until then, wait for mommy and daddy die, and you've lived in one for a majority of your pre-teen/teen years, and THEN you can offer that as an alternative for another human being rather than living in poverty.

You're saying I have no right to decide to "put them in the system," but apparently their biological mother has the right to end their life. It's good to see you have your priorities in order...

not saying he deserves to die.. but abortions can help alot of people and raise the standard of living.

So can rounding up and executing the poor and disabled, but you don't see anyone trying that.

Eric, who was lucky enough to be adopted by my aunt and uncle soon after going up for adoption, now lives in a psychiatric hospital, in a rubber room, in a straightjacket, because of all the times he's tried to kill himself. He has clinical paranoia. The doctors say he'll never fully recover.

Why does he have this paranioa? Is it genetic? No, my friends, his illness is brought on from the unbelievable psychological stress of knowing you were not brought into this world by parents who truly loved you. It's a biological fact that in the first week a child becomes extremely attached to their mother, and upon learning that she did not want nor love him, he became increasingly depressed. At 13, he was smoking pot. At 14, shooting smack and snorting coke. By 15, LSD had been added to his spectacularly dangerous and expensive daily drug coctail.

Now tell me this: is this a life worth living? He clearly doesnt think so.

Unless you can tell me, without a doubt, that every single person put up through adoption will turn out this way this means nothing. People have been adopted and lived good lives. I know, it sounds crazy, but it's true.

Now my respsonse to the ridiculous argument that the reasonable punishment for sexual intercourse is a child: if the punishment for this activity is a child, then we can conclude that we were meant to be gay, because this "punishment" is not vested upon the homosexuals in our society. This obviously cannot mesh with your creed, so that argument is out.

A child is not a "punishment," it is a "consequence," or, in other words, what happens as a result of, which isn't necessarily a negative thing. So, no, you're just changing what I said. And another thing, what is this so-called "creed" of mine against homosexuals? If you can point it out to me I'd be relieved, because my inability to find it is frustrating me.

Furthermore, Republicans have a nasty habit of citing the Constitution when it suits them and changing it when it doesn't.

This may come as a shock to you, but... BOTH SIDES DO THAT!

This also states that these rights are bestowed FROM BIRTH. Not from conception, from BIRTH. Q.E.D.

I'm not saying it doesn't say that; I'm saying it needs to be changed. I'm sure you'll agree that a baby is no more alive one hour after birth than he/she was one hour before birth. A line needs to be drawn when a baby is considered alive. And, no, I'm not saying babies are alive from the moment they are concieved, because at that point they're just a bunch of cells, and I do not oppose abortion at this stage. There does become a time, however, when it's brain get's "turned on," and I believe this time is around 10 weeks after conception, and that is why I do not support abortion after that time.

The next argument you present is that God condemns abortion.

Okay, I get it now, this post is directed at someone else, considering I don't believe in God in any form. I'll just skip this part...

As for your final argument, on wasted potential, out of the 6 million lives taken every year by abortion, statistically there will be 600 serial killers, over 3 million pro-choice liberals, 600,000 illegal drug users, and half a despot/terrorist leader/general ne'er-do-well. Do you really want that to happen?

So it's okay to kill the 2.9-ish million innocents in order to stop that 3.1-ish million from existing? Wow, your logic is almost as advanced as a two-year-old's. Keep up the good work.

But she should have the choice. It is not within the rights nor the authority of your religion or even the government to legislate what a person can or cannot do with their body as long as it is not hurting the general public.

Her rights only extend so far as they do not infringe on the rights of another, and I personally believe the baby counts as "another." This is not because of religion (I'm atheist). Obviously the law considers the unborn child to be alive to some degree, since murdering a pregnant woman can net you two murder charges, yet when the mother herself is doing the killing, no one cares.

People on life support are not truly alive

And yet it's illegal to pull the plug on them... :susp

I hope you'll think about this and really look at your opinion, because these are some very good points.

No thanks.

A mother****ing tumor is a living thing with cells foriegn to the carrier, does that mean that we should say "life is precious in any way shape or form" and ban tumor removal surgeory as well?

A tumor lacks the sentience a human has. Nice try, though.

if a woman isnt ready for a child, let her abort the baby. as long as its not super late in the pregnancy..

I guess she shouldn't have had sex if she wasn't ready for a child. *gasp!*

How about plugging up your bleeding heart long enough to see the social implications of 12 million extra children (10 million American) every year? Stupid people need to stop breeding, but short of mass moronocide, the only alternatives we have are birth control and abortion. Obviously the first choice is preferable, but we cannot have 50 bazzillion unwanted children who arent adopted and become homeless people living in the ghetto learning to kill and hate the rich because in their life no one loved them and they haven't got the neccessary education or social skills to live a healthy life. It's a recipe for anarchy.

* In your first post it was 6 million, but apparently it's 12 now. Which is it?
* Yes, but when the risk of having a child is aparent and abortion suddenly isn't an option, people will tend to be more responsible with their sex lives. (note: sex ed needs to be improved)
* But of those "50 bazzillion unwanted children" maybe 2% of them will turn out in the way you describe (emphasis on maybe)

Adoption may be an option and yes there are flaws.

I don't think the majority of these flaws quite amounts to death, though.

One thing I'll say that I base partly from George Carlin about abortion is that many pro-life people and Republicans are hypocrites in that pro-life people will bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors which is anti-life and Republicans are often times for the military and war (example Bush) and making abortion illegal gives them more bodies for troops but the thing is these people will fight for the baby to be born but once it's born they are like "you're on your own," plus the military in itself is not really pro-life in that war takes lives

Generalizations are fun! Because there are extremists on one side of the spectrum (and god forbid we point out that there are extremists on both sides), ALL of them must be extremists, too!

If you want to have sex, wear a freaking rubber. If you become pregnant, 99.99% of the time it is your own fault. It's not that hard of a concept to most of the retards out there. If you really don't want to use rubbers, get on birth control and don't take antibiotics.. People in this world act and then complain about and avoid the concequences. You had sex with out a rubber, or took antibitoics while on birth control. Don't kill a freaking baby over it; it's your own damned fault.

Well said.

 

[amrtin77]

undead, people have sex. people will always have sex. might as well get rid of the fetus before its actually a thinking feeling baby... why ruin two or three lives when you could ruin none by ending the problem before it starts?

and the argument that "a non feeling, non thinking fetus has potential to become a human"

no shit, so does my sperm when i jack off.

 

[Nermal]

undead, people have sex. people will always have sex. might as well get rid of the fetus before its actually a thinking feeling baby... why ruin two or three lives when you could ruin none by ending the problem before it starts?

and the argument that "a non feeling, non thinking fetus has potential to become a human"

no shit, so does my sperm when i jack off.

^

I'm afraid that even to that... I would have have to say 'then you shouldn't have sex'. Now that's solving the problem before it starts..

Someone wanted a girl's opinion, you've had mine. Ironically, this week I've bene raising the subject a lot amongst my firneds and most girls agree to abortion or at most, understand why other women would do it.

If you don't get abortion, it means you have to go through 9 months of pregnancy, wanted or not. Sure when a child is wanted, he'll rceive all the love and attention he deserves, even as a foetus in a belly. I unfortunately don't think that most girls, even if they don't want the child and opt for adoption, can support a pregnancy. It's very hard on the body and nerves and also on hormones and whatnot. I don't think personnally I would be able to go through 9 months of that to give a child away in the end, stop my studies and etc. I know to most of you this is a very selfish argument.. if an argument at all. But that's how I and a lot of girls feel.

I do admit that all this starts from having sex. No one in their right mind can actually deny that. But then it happens. I hardly see myself telling my boyfriend "Well, since there's 0.00001% of chance I might get pregnant even if we use a condom and I'm on the pill, I think we should not have sexual intercourse even if I really want to and you to. The risk is just too damn high" payOkay, now this whole thing could start a debate about sex.. and that's not my intention, I'm just saying. First of, I'm not sure he'd actually buy that.. nor would I really think of that since the chances are just too slim. But if it happens, do I have to go through the 'consequences' of having protected myself and still that very small percentage happened. I knwo this is one case of of millions, but it's still there.

But to get back on topic, then.. is taking the pill wrong then? You are technically 'killing' a part of your body that would allow you to have children. It's also a stage in the conception you know, so is this where it all begins? I know there is a difference between the two, but it could just as much be considered as the beginning of killing a human being, then should we tell that to all the girls that take the pill? 'You shouldn't have sex' I know this is a whole other issue, but somehow I see it on the same level.

So, from what I can see, some people are 'okay' with abortion as long as it's in early stages before it becomes a baby, others are simply against. To those that think it's okay before it becomes a baby, it's still a 'potential' baby as a feotus, and yet you agree to that? Then your logic is flawed. I'm not saying doing this is wrong, I'm just saying your logic is flawed because if you are against abortion, this should also apply.

to reply to B~E: You say you don't know of a mother that wouldn't die for her child, do you truly believe that while the child as yet to be born, she will think of it that way? People are selfish in life, yes some would do it, but not all of them.

 

[amrtin77]

people will ALWAYS have sex, think realistically. theres no way you can stop people from having sex. its going to happen. what are you going to do about it? have a population living in poverty?

 

[Ethanael]

i have to disagree with saying that you would rather have been born with an STD than have never existed. How do you know what never existing is like? You don't know because id you knew what never existing was like, you wouldn't be here to tell us about it.
I guess i believe in abortion if there's a REALLY good reason, like if the baby is going to be born with a horrible disease, like an STD, or if the mother would instantly and certainly die if she tried to give birth, but i don't think it's alright for people to just have an abortion just because they aren't responsible enough to use take responsibility for there mistakes.
Use protection, don't get an STD, preferably don't have premarital sex, but we're in America here. Home of the mighty comdom. My point, only abort if it is absolutely neccesary, otherwise, don't destroy the lives of unborn children. Killing an unborn child...what separates killing an unborn child and killing a born child? What separates someone who aborts a pregancy with a perfectly healthy child from a murderer and a criminal?
When do we draw the line between what is right and what is wrong? To what extent is the area in between gray? To what extent do we have the right as human beings to extinguish another human life unjustly?
I think that we, all of us, as human beings, are control freaks. We like to control things, we like to be powerful. That is why we naturally fear what we don't understand or can't see. Because we have no control over it. Say, someone gets cancer that is uncurable and has a 100% mortality rate? They are terrified. Because they have no control over what is happening. Because they are, in some cases, unsure of what happens to us when we die. We, as human beings, like to philosophize and try to justify things that we do wrong because we like to believe that we are in control, and that if we think that we have done the right thing for long enough, we will be forgiven, and that everyone will forget. And it is, because of this controlling nature of humans, that we have acquired this vast knowledge of how things work. And how to stop them from working. We like to twist things to our viewpoint so that we seem to be in control. I don't know if there is a definite answer, a simple yes-or-no answer to the question of abortion. There isn't. Nothing is so simple as yes or no. If we must use this power of ours, use it because there is no other alternative. I have very mixed emotions.

 

[Lights]

My quick opinion is that it should be up to the mother for about the first 10ish weeks. After that, I'm afraid you missed your opportunity. For the baby is much more developed and *I* would begin to consider it a living, breathing baby. Before that, it isnt anything but a big mess of nothing, unformed.

I dont really believe in the 'potential' if life. At least not in the extreme sense. For, as soon as the sperm and ovum meet, there is the potential. That means the morning after is out. The cells have to develop first.

Of course, the problem is when is the exact time? Where is the thick red line? I cannot aswer that. :/

 

[Onmyoji the Hidden]

Keep abortions legal and accessible; period, end of story. Thank you and good night.

 

[Tipsy]

I have already posted my opinion on this I just wanted to point one thing out:

The next argument you present is that God condemns abortion. For starters, no he doesn't. The practice hadn't been invented 2,000 years ago. Furthermore, the Bible states that the only entity allowed to take life is the State.

This is according from a Roman Catholic view only, I am not stating it is right or better than your belief or whatever, I just wanted to point this out. The bible does actually condemn abortion. One simple phrase: 'Thou shall not kill'. Roman Catholic church considers aborton murder. This is not an argument it is the fact that the bible does condemn abortion, there is no argument ment in this post.

Also, its' funny how everyone always picks on God whenever they're in a touchy topic. You are debating against athiest vs athiest and you are the one bringing God into the argument.

 

[KillThePreppies]

Figures you don't like abortion, but you don't have to worry about it; you're too busy to notice that there's a real world out there and everything is subjective.

No more posts like that, mkay?
~mac

 

[l33t 0n3]

To add to tipsy's post:
And if there is a god (don't want to debate it here, so hush), do you really think god is incapable of forming new views based on the bible? Or that he could not forsee abortion?

---

I believe abortion is okay if the parent has a STD which is serious enough to cripple the baby's life. For people who DON'T have serious STD's that transferred to the baby, abortion should be illegal after a small given time. It is not "choice" for women, it is abuse. They make the "choice" to kill a baby, but did the baby have a choice to live? Murderers choose to kill other people, what difference does it make that the victim is inside of your body. Everyone has the right to life, so why to we allow this abuse? Try to explain this to me without sounding like an asshole. It's impossible to, because it IS abuse, and it IS morally incorrect, and it SHOULD BE illegal.

 

[Sogeking]

yes i know, thats why there should be limits to abortion, you shouldnt ban it all together!

 

[Nermal]

No matter what people say, it may seem sexist, and it is, but the choice in the end really does come back to the women.

When a the guys will have to share half of the pregnancy, half of the physical effects it causes, half of the emotionnal shock it is to bear a child, half of the labor, half of the trauma caused by giving a child away to adoption... then MAYBE they will get a say in this.

I'm not saying this is a nice way... but that's how it is. Girls that really do use abortion as a 'contraception' mean are the worst! I admit to that.. but not everyone is like that... accidents happen. And I'm sorry to say that the fact why most guys say that 'then she shouldn't sleep with anyone' is because they can't accept the fact that women have a sexuality of their own.. just like men. The men's job ends in bed when it comes to conceiving a child.. and as I'Ve said.. when they'll have to share half of all the repercution that it has... then maybe they can have their say in the women's decision on abortion.

 

[Sogeking]

now, dont think im being sexist either,

but

men do provide a mostly stable income, how often do you hear of a single pregnancy with no other support than the mother herself? not often. the man should provide the money, time to run errands for this and that, etc.

besides, how many planned preganancies are horrible? maybe at childbirth...but they can have high doses of drugs to take away the pain.