Abortion

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The_Raven7

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Ok so wait, you guys are saying that "women who deserve forgivness for getting pregnant don't get pregnant so it doesn't matter and people who do get pregnant deserve the pain of having birth and neglecting a child by doing absolutly nothing because it's their fault for being whores"? Yes, please let's go around telling rape victims it's their fault and they must have the baby because it's "life" while the teens who make mistakes are to not be forgiven (which is against the bible) and must be punished by giving birth to a child and taking care of it even if she is uncapable while the whores who have babies don't care about the kids so it really isn't punishment in the first place to make them have it because all it does make them either neglect it or send it up for adoption where its fate is forever unknown. I mean just becuase brain nuerons are active in the womb doesn't mean they have a concious or actually understand the concept of "life". To say that abortion shouldn't be allowed because you aren't giving the UNBORN BABY a say in the matter is the most idiodic thing I have heard. Imagine this, you are a happy middleclass 27 year old and get pregnant with your husband. All of a sudden, 9 weeks later, BAM OMG BANKRUPTCY! There is no way you can afford to care for a child, and without a car or ANYTHING you can't actually get to the nearest adoption center (which, btw is in the next town 20 miles away). "What about family?" The first 6 months of life (outside of the womb) the baby requires the true parents or it can become emotionally handicapped or mentally retarded. The biological parents' voice, actions, appearance, and personality are the key relations to a child and developing with a different person in there care isn't as good. "How are you going to afford the abortion?" Well, seeing as to giving birth isn't the best thing for your child, you would probably convince your family to help you get one. But guess what? If you ban abortion then you will get people in dire non-child situations going to roadside "doctors" who will go up with a hanger and try to break the plecenta. You can't sue an unlicensed person, so not only would the state have difficulty persuing the guy, if he were to damage you in the fake abortion you couldn't recieve compensation.

In conclusion, you cannot ban abortion.
 

Sogeking

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first, let me state that it should definitly not be the womans choice alone to abort a child. Before you say its the woman's body, remember, its the man's sperm and without that chromosome from the man, there can be no child to begin with. So thus, it should not only be the womans choice but the man's choice as well.

next, lets talk about raven7...

is it animal abuse to kill a pet because you cannot afford owning it? Let me answer that now, no its not because i know from exepriance...

I had a pet cat for about 12 years, about 2 months ago he was diagnosed with diabetes and would need over a thousand dollars a week in inaculations and other treatment for the diabetes. Now, i could be paying over a thousand dollars a week just to keep my cat alive, or have him put down because i cannot afford to keep him alive.

in a sense, that is the same situation. In case you dont understand, certain cases arrise where it is ok to do things that would normally be breaking the law. If someone was raped they should have the ability to abort the child because it should have been concentual sex and the girl should have been given the choice to have the child. Now, without her say, she has a high possibility to have a child because of some arrogant asshole that wanted her. Should she be forced to have the child because it was her fault for getting raped? No. Give her the choice to abort. There are so many things that you can compare that situation to.

So no, abortion isnt banable.

but putting limitations on it is certainly feasable. Just like animal abuse, there can be abortion abuse.

Do you think its right that a couple aborts because "we didnt expect a child" ? They had concentual sex and it is obviously their fault for not using anything to prevent child birth.

If they had concentual sex and used birth control, thats another circumstance where someone else is at fault whom didnt have a say in concentual sex. A private company providing the condoms or the pills is at fault for the child birth because their products are "unsafe" and such. So in this case abortion would be ok.

I am pro-life, and against use of abortion as a 'birth control' method.
 

Tipsy

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If a girl gets raped and gets pregnant? Should she keep it? for 9 months reminding her she was raped? It's a tricky subject with many different possibilities in it. I just think it all comes down to a decision made between the two parts involved (or one in some cases).
It doesn't matter how a person gets pregnant to me, life is a gift and should be treated that way. Just because it was created in a way that person dislikes doesn't mean that it is worth any less.

Ok so wait, you guys are saying that "women who deserve forgivness for getting pregnant don't get pregnant so it doesn't matter and people who do get pregnant deserve the pain of having birth and neglecting a child by doing absolutly nothing because it's their fault for being whores"?
Nope, everybody deserves forgiveness for getting an abortion regardless.

As for not having the economic power to afford a baby, thats one of the top reasons for adoption. If you can't afford it give it so someone who wants to or can.
 

Undead Cheese

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Nermal said:
Let's get back to the example of a girl who is raped. Her life isn't in danger and yet.. for 'sanity' reasons (let's put that as a main cause here), she could be allowed abortion. Then what about the countless other women, who had 'accidents' happen and can't bare the emotionnal/physical/economical/etc burden it presents? Should they be allowed to?
No, there's a difference. The woman who was raped did not choose to have sex and thus never accepted the consequences. The other women in your scenario all chose to have sex.

The_Raven7 said:
Ok so wait, you guys are saying that "women who deserve forgivness for getting pregnant don't get pregnant so it doesn't matter and people who do get pregnant deserve the pain of having birth and neglecting a child by doing absolutly nothing because it's their fault for being whores"?
You seem to see things in black and white. There's more than two options (keeping the child vs. aborting it) PUT THE DAMN THING UP FOR ADOPTION! Guess what? In life there are consequences for your actions. Sex is no different. No matter how many contraceptives you use, there is always[/i] the chance that sexual intercourse will result in offspring.

The_Raven7 said:
Yes, please let's go around telling rape victims it's their fault and they must have the baby because it's "life" ...
Abortion in the case of rape is alright in my book, since the woman involved did not chose to have sex and thus did not accept the consequences that may occur as a result.

The_Raven7 said:
while the teens who make mistakes are to not be forgiven (which is against the bible) and must be punished by giving birth to a child and taking care of it even if she is uncapable
I couldn't care less if it's against the Bible. I'm an atheist. And, again, you don't seem to be seeing adoption as a viable alternative.

The_Raven7 said:
Imagine this, you are a happy middleclass 27 year old and get pregnant with your husband. All of a sudden, 9 weeks later, BAM OMG BANKRUPTCY! There is no way you can afford to care for a child, and without a car or ANYTHING you can't actually get to the nearest adoption center (which, btw is in the next town 20 miles away).
Not an issue. Just leave the child at the hospital and tell them you'd rather have it put up for adoption. They'll take care of the rest.

The_Raven7 said:
The first 6 months of life (outside of the womb) the baby requires the true parents or it can become emotionally handicapped or mentally retarded.
Umm... Source? I don't think a hospital would let you leave a newborn child there so they could put it up for adoption if that was the case.

The_Raven7 said:
The biological parents' voice, actions, appearance, and personality are the key relations to a child and developing with a different person in there care isn't as good.
Why? Instead of bonding with their biological parents they'll bond with their adopted parents instead.

The_Raven7 said:
If you ban abortion then you will get people in dire non-child situations going to roadside "doctors" who will go up with a hanger and try to break the plecenta.
And in much reduced numbers.

The_Raven7 said:
You can't sue an unlicensed person, so not only would the state have difficulty persuing the guy, if he were to damage you in the fake abortion you couldn't recieve compensation.
Practicing without a license is a crime; the state would have no problem at all persuing him.

The_Raven7 said:
In conclusion, you cannot ban abortion.
That's fine with me, so long as it's within the first 10 weeks and is only applicable in the case of rape or the mother's life is threatened.

thebastardsword said:
If they had concentual sex and used birth control, thats another circumstance where someone else is at fault whom didnt have a say in concentual sex. A private company providing the condoms or the pills is at fault for the child birth because their products are "unsafe" and such. So in this case abortion would be ok.
No, it's not the fault of the contraceptive company, it's still your fault for having sex. Contraceptives are not 100% effective, and by chosing to have sex fully aware of this condition, it is your fault for having the child.
 
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Ah... sweet abortion. Just kidding. This one is a no brainer my friends. Paraphrasing the Digable Planets: Law makers do not belong in the uteruses of the women of America. We males have no right to discuss this issue whatsoever, it is not our bodies that are at stake. Let the women decide on this matter, they do all the work, we just provide the seed. I'm finished with this thread and ready for bed (serendipitous rhyme! Oh joy!). I'm getting loopy.
 

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If legalized, they need a STRICT policy with the following:
Consent - My dad's firstborn was aborted without his consent because his g/f was a whore. Dumb bitch's parents who payed for the abortion died next christmas.
Limit - One abortion per person. That way, most women won't be complete whores, and might gain some decency.
Age - Minors only. Underaged people are never mature enough to handle a baby. 18+ people who don't want a baby and don't use rubbers better grow up.
etc.

Then, I MIGHT agree with abortion. Maddox's regressive party was funny, but if you know crap, he doesn't actually agree with what he says, as he has answered to countless emails. He just finds it funny.
 

Undead Cheese

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Onmyoji_the_Hidden said:
Ah... sweet abortion. Just kidding. This one is a no brainer my friends. Paraphrasing the Digable Planets: Law makers do not belong in the uteruses of the women of America. We males have no right to discuss this issue whatsoever, it is not our bodies that are at stake. Let the women decide on this matter, they do all the work, we just provide the seed. I'm finished with this thread and ready for bed (serendipitous rhyme! Oh joy!). I'm getting loopy.
You've addressed two of the three parties in this situation, but you have failed to address the third; the baby. Your rights only extend so far as they do not infringe on the rights of another.
 

coRtALoS

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Being born into poverty is supposed to give that child a better life than never knowing one? If a homeless bum has a child, what hope does his offspring have if he can barely fend for himself?

What if the rights of both parties conflict? Say the pregnancy has become life-threatening to the mother?

Oh... oh ok, NOW we'll bend the rules, but otherwise the mother can go Eff herself. Is that what you're saying?
 

Undead Cheese

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coRtALoS said:
If a homeless bum has a child, what hope does his offspring have if he can barely fend for himself?
I'll repeat myself (again): PUT THE DAMN BABY UP FOR ABORTION IF YOU DON'T WANT IT OR CAN'T CARE FOR IT!

coRtALoS said:
Say the pregnancy has become life-threatening to the mother?
I've addressed this before, too.

coRtALoS said:
Oh... oh ok, NOW we'll bend the rules, but otherwise the mother can go Eff herself. Is that what you're saying?
As opposed to having the baby get F'ed over? Yes. The mother chose to have sex fully aware of the potential consequences of her actions.
 

coRtALoS

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Undead Cheese said:
I'll repeat myself (again): PUT THE DAMN BABY UP FOR ABORTION IF YOU DON'T WANT IT OR CAN'T CARE FOR IT!...

...As opposed to having the baby get F'ed over? Yes. The mother chose to have sex fully aware of the potential consequences of her actions.
I assume that first line, you meant to put Adoption rather than abortion.

Try explaining that to people in third world countries. They're completely impoverished and have no hopes of changing the state of life for them under current situations.

Try explaining that to a village of people that live with no clean water. People that have no other choice.

You seem to be under the impression that no matter what the situation is, it's as easy as making a simple decision.

Nothing is simple when it comes to humans. Who are you to judge what another human being is allowed to do?

As for adoption, none of us have any say whatsoever concerning whether someone should be put into a state-run facility, unless you come from one. Until then, wait for mommy and daddy die, and you've lived in one for a majority of your pre-teen/teen years, and THEN you can offer that as an alternative for another human being rather than living in poverty.
 

amrtin77

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i know a guy who literally has 30+ siblings... his dad went from woman to woman intenrionall trying to get them pregant and leave. thats ****ed up... and a lot of lives were created in a shitty environment and existing lives ruined. im sure abortion could have helped a lot of people in cases like this... maybe the guy now is glad hes alive, but i dont know. he doesnt have a future, he'll probably work at kfc the rest of his life.

not saying he deserves to die.. but abortions can help alot of people and raise the standard of living.
 

KillThePreppies

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I want to put this thread up because of the danger I see in abortion becoming illegal. Before any of you pipe bomb or sniper my house, allow me to explain the pro-choice argument.

First of all, no one is "pro-abortion." That's like calling someone who supports the Iraq war "pro-killing-iraqis." Abortion is extremely sad and a last resort. No one is going "hee hee hee let's get pregnant so we can kill our child!" It doesn't work that way.

Secondly, to make a base for my argument, Exhibit A: My cousin, Eric Jeton. His parents were college kids just "messing around," but the young woman became pregnant.
She now faced a horrible choice: kill her child, or put him up for adoption through a broken system that subjects unwanted children to physical and sexual abuse.

She chose the latter. Eric, who was lucky enough to be adopted by my aunt and uncle soon after going up for adoption, now lives in a psychiatric hospital, in a rubber room, in a straightjacket, because of all the times he's tried to kill himself. He has clinical paranoia. The doctors say he'll never fully recover.

Why does he have this paranioa? Is it genetic? No, my friends, his illness is brought on from the unbelievable psychological stress of knowing you were not brought into this world by parents who truly loved you. It's a biological fact that in the first week a child becomes extremely attached to their mother, and upon learning that she did not want nor love him, he became increasingly depressed. At 13, he was smoking pot. At 14, shooting smack and snorting coke. By 15, LSD had been added to his spectacularly dangerous and expensive daily drug coctail.

Now tell me this: is this a life worth living? He clearly doesnt think so.

Now my respsonse to the ridiculous argument that the reasonable punishment for sexual intercourse is a child: if the punishment for this activity is a child, then we can conclude that we were meant to be gay, because this "punishment" is not vested upon the homosexuals in our society. This obviously cannot mesh with your creed, so that argument is out.

Furthermore, Republicans have a nasty habit of citing the Constitution when it suits them and changing it when it doesn't. Now I am not for gay marriage, but the Constitution is clearly pro-choice. Where, you ask?

Well, in the most important part, where it states the purpose of government (this can also be found in the Declaration of Independence) the Constitution states that the purpose of government is to protect the basic human rights of American society: Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. This also states that these rights are bestowed FROM BIRTH. Not from conception, from BIRTH. Q.E.D.

The next argument you present is that God condemns abortion. For starters, no he doesn't. The practice hadn't been invented 2,000 years ago. Furthermore, the Bible states that the only entity allowed to take life is the State. This would seem to prove our point, because the government allows abortion, and lo and behold, the majority of abortions are performed with money from Medicare, which is, in fact, a government institution.

Even though Ephysians 12:6 states that your true enemy is authority and corrupt rulers, the Bible (or at least the New Testament, which is what I'll stick with because the two Testaments contradict each other too much to make a good argument using both, and the New Testament is about Jesus, which is what your religion is SUPPOSED to be about.) makes it point very clearly that political change is to be made peacefully, through diplomacy or civil disobedience, thus proving the blasphemy of God's Army and other organizations that use terror as a weapon to further Christian ideas.

As for your final argument, on wasted potential, out of the 6 million lives taken every year by abortion, statistically there will be 600 serial killers, over 3 million pro-choice liberals, 600,000 illegal drug users, and half a despot/terrorist leader/general ne'er-do-well. Do you really want that to happen?

Finally, this is what I believe is the finest pro-choice argument. If "God" making a fetus die in the womb naturally, then a scared, hurt little girl, who might have been raped or subjected to incest, or who might die if she gave birth, choosing to end the pregnancy is an emotional miscarriage. Allow me to explain.

Let's say the girl wasnt raped or anything. She went out, got drunk, and slept with a guy she barely knew. She is a Christian. She is in college, and barely has enough money to buy food, never mind care for a child. She went through the system as a child and was sexually abused. Now she is faced with sending her child through a twisted and evil system, or terminating its life before it truly begins. Both options are incredibly, incredibly sad. But she should have the choice. It is not within the rights nor the authority of your religion or even the government to legislate what a person can or cannot do with their body as long as it is not hurting the general public.

It is also a fact that no one is truly alive unless they can survive on their own. People on life support are not truly alive, though if their lives continued they would not be raped and abused or try to kill themselves or submit the life support system to insane amounts of stress and sadness.

That's really the whole thing. I hope you'll think about this and really look at your opinion, because these are some very good points.
 

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Beautiful post. Compelling and convincing, too. :)

But half of it can be turned around. :p

Ok, before I start, let me state again that I support abortion when the life of the mother is in jeopardy. In this case, she should at least have the chance to chose. Then again, what kind of mother would chose her own life before the life of her child, I wonder.
Then again, I have no idea what it is to chose...


KillThePreppies said:
Secondly, to make a base for my argument, Exhibit A: My cousin, Eric Jeton. His parents were college kids just "messing around," but the young woman became pregnant.
She now faced a horrible choice: kill her child, or put him up for adoption through a broken system that subjects unwanted children to physical and sexual abuse.

She chose the latter. Eric, who was lucky enough to be adopted by my aunt and uncle soon after going up for adoption, now lives in a psychiatric hospital, in a rubber room, in a straightjacket, because of all the times he's tried to kill himself. He has clinical paranoia. The doctors say he'll never fully recover.

Why does he have this paranioa? Is it genetic? No, my friends, his illness is brought on from the unbelievable psychological stress of knowing you were not brought into this world by parents who truly loved you. It's a biological fact that in the first week a child becomes extremely attached to their mother, and upon learning that she did not want nor love him, he became increasingly depressed. At 13, he was smoking pot. At 14, shooting smack and snorting coke. By 15, LSD had been added to his spectacularly dangerous and expensive daily drug coctail.

Now tell me this: is this a life worth living? He clearly doesnt think so.
I'm really sad that your cousin didn't turned for the best, and I agree that living as an adopted child is far from being the best ground to grow up and start your life, but, unless proven the contrary, I believe that the extrem case of your counsin is only a minority that really doesn't represent a lot of people, and that thus can't really be used to flaw the whole adoption argument.
But if you goal was only to get through our head the fact that adoption has negative consequences, you did succeed there.

Now my respsonse to the ridiculous argument that the reasonable punishment for sexual intercourse is a child: if the punishment for this activity is a child, then we can conclude that we were meant to be gay, because this "punishment" is not vested upon the homosexuals in our society. This obviously cannot mesh with your creed, so that argument is out.
I agree, but I think that what he ment was "responsability" insteed of "punishment'", which mean we can't get rid of the kid simply because he was an accident, and he gets in the way of our career or studies, which is, by the way, a popular reason for kids to choose abortion. We brought him into this world, he is now our resbonsability. And that I agree with.


Well, in the most important part, where it states the purpose of government (this can also be found in the Declaration of Independence) the Constitution states that the purpose of government is to protect the basic human rights of American society: Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. This also states that these rights are bestowed FROM BIRTH. Not from conception, from BIRTH. Q.E.D.
Your only playng on words here. I dont think the founding father had a very thoughtfull understandingof the difference betwen "conception" and "birth", so we can't really hold them accountable for what they said concerning abortion and birth.

The next argument you present is that God condemns abortion. For starters, no he doesn't. The practice hadn't been invented 2,000 years ago. Furthermore, the Bible states that the only entity allowed to take life is the State. This would seem to prove our point, because the government allows abortion, and lo and behold, the majority of abortions are performed with money from Medicare, which is, in fact, a government institution.

Even though Ephysians 12:6 states that your true enemy is authority and corrupt rulers, the Bible (or at least the New Testament, which is what I'll stick with because the two Testaments contradict each other too much to make a good argument using both, and the New Testament is about Jesus, which is what your religion is SUPPOSED to be about.) makes it point very clearly that political change is to be made peacefully, through diplomacy or civil disobedience, thus proving the blasphemy of God's Army and other organizations that use terror as a weapon to further Christian ideas.
Well, thats convincing. But this bible stuff is way out of my league. :)

As for your final argument, on wasted potential, out of the 6 million lives taken every year by abortion, statistically there will be 600 serial killers, over 3 million pro-choice liberals, 600,000 illegal drug users, and half a despot/terrorist leader/general ne'er-do-well. Do you really want that to happen?
Oh come on now, what kind of argument is this ? This isn't even about about abortion, this is about the efficiency of our social institutions. It isn't even worth taking into consideration.


Finally, this is what I believe is the finest pro-choice argument. If "God" making a fetus die in the womb naturally, then a scared, hurt little girl, who might have been raped or subjected to incest, or who might die if she gave birth, choosing to end the pregnancy is an emotional miscarriage. Allow me to explain.

Let's say the girl wasnt raped or anything. She went out, got drunk, and slept with a guy she barely knew. She is a Christian. She is in college, and barely has enough money to buy food, never mind care for a child. She went through the system as a child and was sexually abused. Now she is faced with sending her child through a twisted and evil system, or terminating its life before it truly begins. Both options are incredibly, incredibly sad. But she should have the choice. It is not within the rights nor the authority of your religion or even the government to legislate what a person can or cannot do with their body as long as it is not hurting the general public.
Your giving the pregnant girl a choice, but you aren't giving any chances to her kid. As I said, its better to have a shot at life, even a crappy one, than not to exist. Its that simple for me, and I'm wondering why this is even an issue. There is no way in hell that your going to convince anyone by telling him that abortion is whats best for the child.
While abortion only results in death and whatever comes after it, giving birth to the child will allow him to have a chance to live life tothe fullest of his abilities. In virtually any case, abortion is taking the easy way out; it's dropping your ball, and quiting, instead of letting your child the chance of perservering and trying to forge a better life at least for himself. Abortion is sort of like suicide, and suicide is surrender, an admittance that the universe is not worth residing in. It is cowardly, undignified, pathetic, and worthy of scorn. At least that's how I see it.
Most probably see it different.

It is also a fact that no one is truly alive unless they can survive on their own. People on life support are not truly alive, though if their lives continued they would not be raped and abused or try to kill themselves or submit the life support system to insane amounts of stress and sadness.
But in term of potential, the foetus is as alive as anything can be, for it has its entire life in front of it. How can you seriously ignore the fact that in least than a few months, it will nevertheless be fully alive ?
 

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A mother****ing tumor is a living thing with cells foriegn to the carrier, does that mean that we should say "life is precious in any way shape or form" and ban tumor removal surgeory as well?
 

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I'm speaking in potential of what it can become. A foetus has a great potential, however humble his beginning is. But a tumor, howver, well, its junot very thoughtful to bring it up...
 

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amrtin77 said:
at what point should we consider the fetus human? thats the real question.
When there is a heart beat. but i just hate the fact that most abortions happen when they are like 4-6 months pregnant....
 

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as for the wasted potential thing, i know thats a weak argument on my side but i was trying to point out that its a weak argument on their side too.
 

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thank you.

as for the wasted potential thing, i know thats a weak argument on my side but i was trying to point out that its a weak argument on their side too.
Did you really write that post above? I just find it odd that you went from perfect grammar to no grammar in the next post. :( If you didnt write it, some credit is due.. If you really did, sorry. :/ My apologies are here.

[/slightlyofftopic]
 

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The_Raven7 said:
A mother****ing tumor is a living thing with cells foriegn to the carrier, does that mean that we should say "life is precious in any way shape or form" and ban tumor removal surgeory as well?

A mother****ing cat has a tumor which is a living thing with cellf foriegn to the carrier, does that mean we should prepare for kittens? why not, since tumors and reproduction are so similar.

oh btw, webster's dictionary disagrees with your whole quote as well.

Tumor - A morbid swelling, prominence, or growth, on any part of the body; especially, a growth produced by deposition of new tissue; a neoplasm.
 
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