Warcraft Imbalance Discussion

[Emperor Pan I]

hippos are better than gargs, face it and if they finish with gargs mount archers on them for ghouls. if they switch to fiends, then u made them switch to fiends big deal, archers still take out fiends u just need to learn to micro.

and I hate all these people who say insane numebrs of statues 4? that is 12 food make it 5 statues and u got the food cost of 3 heros.

 

[Theroy]

Archers suck. A lv 3 coil kills one archer. At that rate how easy is it to get to lv 6? Not hard at all mass up archers here comes a dk takes out 6 of them before he runs out of mana then goes buys a potion of mana and refills what he lost in a min with statues. Or for you to attack his base which you will lose because the super tower which is there hall and the 3 zigs and 2 frost towers which are all extremly godly.

 

[Emperor Pan I]

wow a level 3 Shadowstrike can kill a ghoul! a level 3 entangle can kill a fiend. and if the arguement that u can coil the ghoul before it dies come in, that is one less coil and then u have one more archer to attack with.

 

[Theroy]

Entangle can be dispelled. The fiend can be coiled. And the Kotg would've been a bad choice hero first of all and if you go hi as a second hero he's not going to get lv 5. SS a gould I'd rather not.

 

[AHappyChineseBoy]

it's funny, every race has been complained about EXCEPT Human

 

[Emperor Pan I]

u foret to include that he even said it was only because of the destroyer and it was not by a mile. and NE getting no more buffs.

 

[Silynt Rage]

Originally posted by Theroy
Archers suck. A lv 3 coil kills one archer. At that rate how easy is it to get to lv 6? Not hard at all mass up archers here comes a dk takes out 6 of them before he runs out of mana then goes buys a potion of mana and refills what he lost in a min with statues. Or for you to attack his base which you will lose because the super tower which is there hall and the 3 zigs and 2 frost towers which are all extremly godly.

That's stupid for the simple reason that you said that a lvl 3 coil kills one archer... first off... it should... it's a level 3 spell that is focus fire on one unit... secondly since it is a level 3 spell, you are almost to level 6 anyhow... so you're right... it shouldn't take long to get to level 6. So you lose some archers... big deal... if you are that far into the game that your opponent has almost a level 6 hero... and you're still using archers on him... he deserves to reap the benefits of your stupidity of using something with such little life points, so late in the game.

BTW... towers don't have the range that 'pults, ballistae, meat wagons, and tanks for a reason... they are the counter.

Edit - here is my chart... Orc > UD > HU > NE (Until late game, then they're better than HU)
I think orc are the best, I just haven't learned to use them to their full capacity.

 

[Andrew]

Stop debating and just play. Jesus.

 

[Theroy]

Originally posted by Silynt Rage
That's stupid for the simple reason that you said that a lvl 3 coil kills one archer... first off... it should... it's a level 3 spell that is focus fire on one unit... secondly since it is a level 3 spell, you are almost to level 6 anyhow... so you're right... it shouldn't take long to get to level 6. So you lose some archers... big deal... if you are that far into the game that your opponent has almost a level 6 hero... and you're still using archers on him... he deserves to reap the benefits of your stupidity of using something with such little life points, so late in the game.

BTW... towers don't have the range that 'pults, ballistae, meat wagons, and tanks for a reason... they are the counter.

Edit - here is my chart... Orc > UD > HU > NE (Until late game, then they're better than HU)
I think orc are the best, I just haven't learned to use them to their full capacity.

Yeah well that little unit is one of your only counters to air. And they are almost required. You're going to get glaives against undead 2 of them = 6 food that 6 food the time use to make thoes and gold could be better spent at tier 3 then on glaves how long do you thing it will take to kill that glaive focused fire by air then the air runs back in? not long.

And that lv 5 dk shouldn't be able to out run a warden with a boots of speed with SS on it. No unit should die instantly from one stupid spell despite level. Only crappy hero's can have it like charm and doom.

 

[Silynt Rage]

Originally posted by Theroy
Yeah well that little unit is one of your only counters to air. And they are almost required. You're going to get glaives against undead 2 of them = 6 food that 6 food the time use to make thoes and gold could be better spent at tier 3 then on glaves how long do you thing it will take to kill that glaive focused fire by air then the air runs back in? not long.

And that lv 5 dk shouldn't be able to out run a warden with a boots of speed with SS on it. No unit should die instantly from one stupid spell despite level. Only crappy hero's can have it like charm and doom.

Lvl 5 DK should be able to catch up... why shouldn't it?

warden has 320 speed as does a DK, the speed of the DK increases with unholy aura by 30% assuming he's got a level 3 aura... now 30% of 320 is 96.... so we're talking 416 speed at a level 3 aura.

Boots of speed add only 60 speed. so 380 - 416... DK wins. Now if you put boots of speed on a DK... you're talking 476 speed, that is crazy.

just for kicks... let's see what 20% (level 2 DK aura) matches up...

20% of 320 is 64... which again... is still faster than boots of speed on a warden.


anti air comparison?

Dryad vs. Archer

Dryad
145 gold, 60 wood 3 food
240 Life points
24 pt. ave. Damage
Has slow, immune to magic
No Armor
30 build time

Archer
120 gold, 10 wood, 2 food
435 life
26 pt. Aver damage points
No Magical capability
Medium armor
20 build time

that's basically what matters in this discussion...

I personally like the dryad, one their immune to spells which eliminates your death coil arguement... they also have almost twice the life capacity that the archers does... however it doesn't have armor, but what you're saying is that the archer isn't getting killed by anything other than the DK's coil, so that is irrellivant... so now you're saying armor is irrellivant.

So again, I have to say that I like the average damage of 24 plus the slow ability, dispell ability, and magical immunity, plus almost twice the life. To the 26 damage... but my unit lasts half as long, and the attacker isn't attacking me at a faster rate. I spend 15 gold, 50 wood, and 1 food extra, wait an extra 10 seconds and blam I have a unit that is almost twice as good as the previous unit. So it doesn't do as much damage (2), but by me attacking it also prevents the enemy from doing more damage as well, which also makes the hit points of the unit that much more valid.

Now you're saying archers have serious validity... and dryads are only a teir 2 unit? and you get all their benefits, and you're talking about teir 3? get real. It's not contest go with the dryads. I'm not saying exclusive.. archers wouldn't suck in your army but it's definately enough of an arguement to make you think twice about your late game archers.

- Rage

(yes... I'm back)

edit: just for the fun of it, i did hte math, a level 1 shadowstrike slows movement speed of the unit by 50%, so... let's say our DK has boots and has 476 speed and you hit him with your shadowstrike... the DK should be down to 238 speed... and if your warden has boots, she should be up at 380, if you are getting caught by a hero that has shadow strike on them wearing your boots, regardless of auras... you should definately report it to blizzard... cuz there is something wrong...

 

[Emperor Pan I]

BTW, a level 5 DK can only have either a level 3 coil or a level 3 aura never both. And if he gets to level 6 u get the ultimate(which is the most useless ultiamte in the game.)

And the DK without boots and SS with a aura level 2 is not that fast when looking at warden with boots and no spell on it slowing it down. Now the level 3 aura with level 3 coild can not happen till level 6 or 7 and by then if ur warden doesnt have at least level 6 or 7 also u jsut lose ur arguement cause u suck.

 

[None293823]

How about buffing Human in the next patch? Humans are nerfed since 1.12 . How can you explain that everybody loses from UD, if yuo watch the ESWC 2004 - all lost from UD, when they are Human. Othwerwise they would have won vs orc, NE or Human.

 

[None293823]

Ok here are some nerfs from 1.13 that have effect now, it would be better if they werent nerfed.

1.13
- Blizzard is now damage capped. This damage cap is invoked when Blizzard hits more than 5 targets per wave.

1.15
- Flamestrike damage capped to 5 targets. If more than 5 targets are hit, the damage done to 5 targets normally is split evenly across all available targets.

Only these 2 were the seriuos Human nerf but AOE is Human's power, actually the casters as a whole are their power.

 

[None293823]

Originally posted by VBadGirl
it was capped because the overall damage was too high. a lvl 3 blizzard or flamestrike was enough to kill even bears... or almost any tier 3 units without you having the tier 3 units.

Humans rely a lot on magic and as long that old man.. AM will have brillance humans will still be powerful. IF! blizzard will nerf the brillance aura that! would be a major set back.

and let look at some good buffs mage:

-- Bash % chance to hit increased by 5% across all levels.
- Militia are now level-1 units, instead of level-2 units. This causes them
to give less experience when killed.
- Scout Towers can be repaired twice as fast as before.
- Storm Bolt stun is now 5 seconds vs. units and 3 seconds vs. Heroes at all
levels. Previously, it had this level of stun at level 1, but went up 2
seconds vs. units and one second vs. Heroes each level. Additionally,
level-2 and level-3 damage are now 225 and 350, respectively.
- Holy Light mana cost reduced to 65 from 75.

i think they got pretty damn good buffs mage thats why they are such a good solo race.

This , VBad means that I can add what really didnt need to be buffed or that it made humans stronger with these buffs:

-- Bash % chance to hit increased by 5% across all levels.

Yes good point. But not only imbalanced, useless too.

- Militia are now level-1 units, instead of level-2 units. This causes them
to give less experience when killed.

This actually isnt something that made Human stronger. An orc comes with feral spirits and you lose half of your militia. UD comes with rod or CL with carriob beetles and 3/4 of your militia are lost. NE can do the same with fan of knives or another Hum with blizz. I remember when I played Zaku in one FFA on 1.13 with flame strike i became lvl 4. ANd Ive made lvl 6 from early harass and killing militia and footmen. Is this fair?

- Storm Bolt stun is now 5 seconds vs. units and 3 seconds vs. Heroes at all

Yes this is a big change but this is not war stomp. Obvously it should have better effect. I agree that it became imbalanced.

- Holy Light mana cost reduced to 65 from 75.

It was also unnecessary thing. You know paladin is used more as 3rd and having AM as first or second makes it useless. Paladin isnt buffed so much to be of use as first hero, possible vs UD but no way vs any other race.

an 1.12 which was also unnecessary:
- Aerial Shackles damage has been increased from 20 points per second to
30 per second.

You see, what was nerfed was a mistake what was buffed was also a mistake.

 

[Theroy]

Garg Goul = Uncounterable for Nigtelf. And I stand by that.

 

[Theroy]

The only way war3 will be balanced.

1)

All races are gone except Human. Dosen't get any more balanced then that

2)

Blizzard can stop being lazy and patch properly and seperate 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 you will never get balance if you try and please all thoes unless you do them seperate.

3)

Make things similiar ex) make a hunt do melee dmg and do 19-20 and cost 190 gold. Make a footmen cost 190 gold a melee unit and do 19-20 dmg they both have 500 hp. Make wisps have 100 hp and have to walk back and forth for gold like every other race.

4)

Get rid of undead.

 

[I_sa_kill_u_now]

**i lik the way u think but just remember its already hard enough to use NE there a f***ing hard team to use ....unless ur lik me or any other that just play this game for fun so just let blizard do wat they want and its the thing that u r telling them to get off there ass.....wat in hell do u think ur doing ur sitting on ur ass wrighting this stuff to ppl so i think its u who should get off ur ass and make a game.....if u do tell me and ill play it and then u can feel the pressure of ppls coments lik urs**

 

[x42bn6]

Theroy's suggestion can be condensed as follows:

Four races, all units doing the same damage as their Human counterparts, differently skinned, auras seemingly doing different things while they are in fact doing nothing.

 

[NeverGoingBack]

Well yes basically 1&3 would be the same thing... making each race exact in every aspect.

This would remove the imbalance clause.. at the same time it would destroy the term strategy since there would be no real countering involved, hence why get aa to counter your air when i can make air too and just out mass you.

 

[Sakuhta]

Thanks for that extra spam x42.

Theroy, it's just not that simple. To have equal melee units etc. would be teh lamer

But seperating the RTs would make a lot of sense.