Strat against UD

[G-Blunted]

Gargs counter dryads pretty well believe it or not...of course you will need the # advantage but that shouldn't be too hard unless you've lost a lot of gargs early tier 2. Dryads cost lots of wood, so if you take like 5-7+ gargs (they do much better when you upgrade their attack 1 or 2 levels), over to his base, you should be able to kill lots of wisps that may have been well blocked when you went there with your hero (not a problem now!). ALso don't forget to use 'em to harass his xpo (or search for one if you havn't found one)... That way his dryad production gets severly hampered, A) Keeping your # of gargs > his # of dryads because of his lack of wood, B) Also allows you to tech to frosties (counter bears), abomb+wagon, or mass frenzied ghouls...or whatever....

Now I'm not a professional...but if you're Pro UD player you get a grip of gargs vs. NE *EVERY* game...personally I'm not that great with 'em so I've been doin the dual crypt ghoul rush with solo dk...it's fun!

Oh and as for gay FoK just bring scrolls...and as for Panda, well ya high level panda is pretty freakin gay vs. ghouls+gargs, but he's not as dangerous at level 1 so you try to kill him then if you can. If you get him first hero though, well you don't get DH so you get harassed while you try to creep him up...again bring scrolls....and don't forget stoneform can rid your gargs of Haze...Or if you go spiders, panda will rip them up too, but AMS is more viable option with spiders so you can get that.





EDIT: Here's a replay vs. NE on Turtle Rock. We spawned close positions but he ended up hiding the hunt hall from me or something so I waited a little too long and got kinda owned....Had to wait for frenzy so i got it and went again...well Hunts > ghouls..okay...then I decided I'd try to just start pumpin fiends out of those crypts...well I went to attack (fiends health was a little low) and it was like 4 hunts vs. 4 fiends and basically that vorpal splash bullhsit was owning the hell out of them....so gargs it was.....mass gargs, revived heros, went to base, killed lots of shit, got low hero so back to base, heal up, go back and he has dryads...so I own all his dryads with gargs....and then I wish I would have just made it my mission to mass gargs at tier 2, instead of A) teching up for frenzy, and B) Trying to get spiders...both of which failed....Gargs > Hunts...Gargs > Dryads...GG...

 

[Revelade]

I said once they stop hunts as in when they STOP MAKING HUNTS. Destroyers will be used to remove roar or rejuvenation. You could try using banshees against bears also and it's worked decently for me. Just AMS your hero to protect from mana burn or a hero killer spell and use possess on bears. Don't bother with curse.

Actually, dryads counter gargs better, not the other way around. While you might think that piercing of the garg would do 150% to dryads, the dryads piercing does 200% to gargs, IN addition to poison AND slowing their attack and movement speeds. Of course gargs cost 2 food, but if you are fighting dryads, be expecting to take losses.

Er, spells aren't effected by armor number, except hero armor type. You are completely right when you say AMS should work against AoE. It's too bad not many people use the UD casters. If they don't go dryads, USE CURSE. It's a great spell that gives your army 33% more life.

 

[G-Blunted]

I said once they stop hunts as in when they STOP MAKING HUNTS. Destroyers will be used to remove roar or rejuvenation. You could try using banshees against bears also and it's worked decently for me. Just AMS your hero to protect from mana burn or a hero killer spell and use possess on bears. Don't bother with curse.

Actually, dryads counter gargs better, not the other way around. While you might think that piercing of the garg would do 150% to dryads, the dryads piercing does 200% to gargs, IN addition to poison AND slowing their attack and movement speeds. Of course gargs cost 2 food, but if you are fighting dryads, be expecting to take losses.

Er, spells aren't effected by armor number, except hero armor type. You are completely right when you say AMS should work against AoE. It's too bad not many people use the UD casters. If they don't go dryads, USE CURSE. It's a great spell that gives your army 33% more life.

Pretty sure you still lose the mana from manaburn even with AMS.
Also, in general gargs can handle a few dryads. Dual crypt gargs > single lore dryads. And if there's a couple archers he adds in there, well that's what the nova+coil is for, archers are shit to the nuke. Now if he masses dryads, then stop making gargs, tech to tier 3, unsummon a crypt, lay down another slaughterhouse, and mass abombs and wagons....GG mass dryads...

 

[TheoStormhawk]

Did you even read any of my post? And how stupid do you have to be to think gargs don't counter hunts better than spiders?? We can play a game, i'll get an army of gargs, you get an army of hunts, we'll see who wins....FYI, HUNTS CAN'T EVEN ****ING ATTACK GARGOYLES!! HELLO!!! That automatically makes gargs better counter than spiders! THESE are the basics. Also I provided you with plenty of other reasons to make gargoyles vs. NE. And considering you even watch replays of anyone that's any good...When is the last time you seen professional UD players not make gargs against NE???

Hey dude, HAVE u red any of MY post? This game is not only abou hunt vs gargs, there are other units too, u know.
If u go mass gargs vs mass hunt the only think he will need is to get 5 max 6 archers than all your gargs are history, and the hunt would clean the table.
Don't replay watching advise me, please. I saw them all.
Just as an example, 1.14 madfrogs UD vs NE, he owned everyone with that ghoul garg combo. These days there is only one UD real player left (4K Fov).
In my opinion the human should get nerfed, he is too powerful(even if I am a HM player).

 

[zx9r]

I would think that your ghouls could mop up 5-6 archers in a hurry... if you can micro at all, you should be fine. Use the gargs to hit wisps/wells, and ff hero and ghouls on any anti air that comes around. Then again, attack-move newbies are gonna be in a world of trouble in any situation.

Simply put, in my opinion, it is easier for undead to counter archers/hunts than it is for NE to counter ghoul/garg.

 

[G-Blunted]

Hey dude, HAVE u red any of MY post? This game is not only abou hunt vs gargs, there are other units too, u know.
If u go mass gargs vs mass hunt the only think he will need is to get 5 max 6 archers than all your gargs are history, and the hunt would clean the table.
Don't replay watching advise me, please. I saw them all.
Just as an example, 1.14 madfrogs UD vs NE, he owned everyone with that ghoul garg combo. These days there is only one UD real player left (4K Fov).
In my opinion the human should get nerfed, he is too powerful(even if I am a HM player).

I've read all your posts very thoroughly in fact. 6 archers max?? You'll need a few more than that because "there are other units too, u know". First goes by the name of Lich, he wtfpwns archers all day, second unit is called a Death Knight, he kills archers in a whack and a coil, and the third is called a Ghoul, ghouls wtfrapetheshit out of archers...so then ya, 6 more archers maybe? NE goes dryads in the first place so they can't get nuked to shit.

zx9r: ya and what zx9r said..ghouls are like attack move pwnage on archers, so ya...so much for "max 6 archers is all you need to counter gargs". But actually zx9r...I think you forgot about tavern maps! It's pretty damn easy for noobelves to counter ghoul/garg on those maps... :ufo

 

[zx9r]

Yeah i wasnt taking tavern maps into consideration, was just thinking ghoul/garg vs hunt/archer, and you are right, there are quite a few tavern heroes that put the smack down on ghoul/garg (Panda? Naga? hell, even Alchemist with his acid shits could do some dmg:mean ) The key with ghoul garg, in my opinion, and this has been said before (by me and others), is to hit them FAST... like as soon as my DK pops, i grab a RoN and head for the base. Dont bother bringing ghouls until you have a mini army of them, under 4 and its not worth having them in the way (for the first 5-10 minutes, i hit and run with DK only...unless he needs help). KEEP THE PRESSURE! Hit and run, hit and run, coil as many wisps as u can. While doing that, get another crypt, and upgrade gargs attack. Then as soon as you hit T2, if you have kept enough pressure, it should be GG as soon as you have 3-4 gargs+your horde of ghouls.

But yes, the panda puts the Smizack Dizown :grunt on ghouls, and gargs. fire/haze just rips them to pieces.

EDIT: Its funny how this thread went from Strats AGAINST UD to strats against NE... lmao.

 

[G-Blunted]

like as soon as my DK pops, i grab a RoN and head for the base. Dont bother bringing ghouls until you have a mini army of them, under 4 and its not worth having them in the way
....

But yes, the panda puts the Smizack Dizown :grunt on ghouls, and gargs. fire/haze just rips them to pieces.

Actually....If you scout them early in close position going A) Tavern hero B) Hunts, it's advised to send your ghouls (as well as scout acolyte) and try to stop the hunt hall or the alter. At least I've seen Dae Hui Cho do it numerous times vs NE at close spawn positions on Turtle Rock...and I think on twisted meadows... Anyway, by the time you scout them you'll probably have second ghoul comming out so you send your ghouls over there (they'll be out before your hero) and rally your crypt over there and when hero comes out send him on over and when ghouls get low health send them back to wood because you'll have little to none. I've tried it a few times (never cancled anything tho) and it's definatly changes the tempo of the game drastically although I think it's pretty hard to come back if you can't cancel the hunt hall or alter at least once. It's pretty strange though, I've seen two ladder games of Dae Hui Cho vs. two different players...both close spawn NE on Turtle Rock and he uses the same strat. He cancels the alter, then just sends ghouls and dk to the tavern in the middle and what do you know, both of them had decided to rebuild their alter right next to the tavern! Just shows how gosu FoV is by just knowing that shit...i guess makes sense, soon as alter wisp is done building alter you can buy hero ASAP....

And ya...panda is wtfpwnage vs. ghoul/garg...

Also vs. good NE's there's a good chance game lasts past tier 2....and personally that's when I start struggling and losing vs. NE cause their higher level DH/Panda...And thats why I *HATE* playing vs. NE...

 

[zx9r]

Also vs. good NE's there's a good chance game lasts past tier 2....and personally that's when I start struggling and losing vs. NE cause their higher level DH/Panda...And thats why I *HATE* playing vs. NE...

Yeah, DH is my undoing, mana burn sux, and he is a fast hero... panda is a lil easier to nuke cuz he cant move as quick and collides easy with units, but he too sux with high lvls of fire/haze. :bugeyes

 

[TheoStormhawk]

I've read all your posts very thoroughly in fact. 6 archers max?? You'll need a few more than that because "there are other units too, u know". First goes by the name of Lich, he wtfpwns archers all day, second unit is called a Death Knight, he kills archers in a whack and a coil, and the third is called a Ghoul, ghouls wtfrapetheshit out of archers...so then ya, 6 more archers maybe? NE goes dryads in the first place so they can't get nuked to shit.

zx9r: ya and what zx9r said..ghouls are like attack move pwnage on archers, so ya...so much for "max 6 archers is all you need to counter gargs". But actually zx9r...I think you forgot about tavern maps! It's pretty damn easy for noobelves to counter ghoul/garg on those maps... :ufo

Ok, so u want to say that if I play ne and go fast mass hunt u go against me fast mass gargs, right?
All I have to do is to get hunter hall, and u: tier 2, graveyard, lots of money and time.
This is quite a strat. I see that u say about the lich and dk as if there were no ne heroes around, or better to say, no DH around.
If u talk about replays so much, post a real player replay using this strat.

 

[G-Blunted]

Ok replays...first off you won't find a replay of any good NE player going "fast hunts" vs UD. One reason is becaue if UD comes with his ghoul rush, it'll be before you have many (if any) hunts. Another reason is because if I see you massing tier 1 i'll up a few zigs if i need to help get me by and once the gargs are out the hunts go way down in value. It's like sure HU's could mass sorcs at tier 2 out of dual sanctums before UD gets inevitable destroyers, but any good HU doesn't do that, kinda like the hunts thing.

Anyways here's reasons why you get pwned going hunts first.

Reason #1: Ok, so maybe there's an exception to "no good players ever go hunts vs. UD", but yet again moon is Always the exception because he's doin crazy shit all the time (mass fearie dragons?) Anyways, this is Spirit_Moon (you heard of him right?), on LostTemple (his favorite map) vs. Dae Hui Cho. Moon starts hunts, FoV starts dual crypt ghouls, he sees hunts, techs up. Here comes the gargs, down go the hunts, out come the archers, FoV wins this game needless to say.

Reason #3: Another game on lost temple. This time between SK.HoT and Susiria. HoT is pretty good player, well known in Europe. He tries hunts like Moon did and gets wtfpwned because...well because he got hunts and gargs > hunts. Hunts make bad AA, so when UD techs you gotta either tech to dryads are start massing archers...he tried for dryads but alas...watch the game..Susiria is really freakin good


Reason #3: Dae Hui Cho Ladder Game (on Kalimdor of course)...NE goes for tavern hero + hunt build. Dae Hui Cho scouts this and the inevitable ensues. This is one of the games I was talking about earlier, it's on Turtle Rock close spawn and FoV gets mass alter cancels ftw! GG Hunts...dude shoulda gone archers, they woulda been able to defend against the ghouls.

Reason #4: SK.HoT vs Vankor in Fnatic vs SK battle for WC3L. Again we see Hunts on LT, but not many because they suck phat *%&^# vs. UD. And again the NE will lose to ghoul/garg and destros for talons.


Anyways...took forever to find those because well...no NE player worth shit goes Hunts vs UD because hunts don't help counter gargs. Even moon tried it and it didn't work out for him, he lost. It's like sure I could start with spiders and beat some noob, but if I'm actually trying to win I won't go spiders (unless its like best of 5 and I wanna switch it up).

 

[Cannabis33]

I hope you areb joking about the "If ur human ALT+Q+Q", i play human, and here is my tech vs undead (works real good) :

Hero : mk ( because he has a lot of hp, am dies too fast with coil + nova), second hero : paladin or pitlord, both are really good.

units : footies, footies, footies (WITH DEFENSIF !)... get T3 fast, and then make knigths (1 caserne), MASTER priests (1 arcane santum), and tanks (1 atelier)

tech : try to fast xp, as undead hero comes out late, do milits and kill a medium creep to get fast lvl 2 mk (and choose both spells, not the passive one), DONT FAST EXPAND, it will cost you too much wood and your tanks will come out too late and you will get pwnd by destros ... Every time you fight with the ennemy, try to focus the dk (bolt + surround).This should do.

This works with all undeads if you got a good micro, abos gets pwnd by knigths with inner fire (master priests), destros and wyrms get pwnd by tanks

 

[Revelade]

When I played UD as human, here's what I would go:

Heros: Paladin (light/aura), Bloodmage (mana drain/flamestrike, put 1 point into banish at level 2)

Tier 1 units: footmen
Tier 2 units: breakers
Tier 3 units: knights/rifles

Buildings: 2 Barracks, 1/2 Arcane Sanctums

Upgrades: 1 in each of the blacksmiths, wood+building upgrades, long rifles, defend, animal war training

Strategy: At tier 1, while he uses fiends, you can use footmen with defend that will reduce damage a lot. Start creeping ranged creeps.

At tier 2, you change to breakers which will do 40 damage a hit to statues, so chase after those. Breakers also do 150% more damage to fiends, while taking only 75% from fiends. They can't be nuked, but they can be holy lighted.

At tier 3, you change to knights to provide meat against Aboms and to take care of any more fiends. Then you provide rifles as backup for roys.

Pally's aura will give you 9, 18 or 27% more hp to use. His holy light heals you as well as nukes them. Bloodmage takes away mana from the death knight or lich and gives it back to the pally to light. You can then use banish to super nuke or super heal your units. Flamestrike is also great against the large fiends, statues, or aboms.

 

[TheoStormhawk]

Ok replays...first off you won't find a replay of any good NE player going "fast hunts" vs UD. One reason is becaue if UD comes with his ghoul rush, it'll be before you have many (if any) hunts. Another reason is because if I see you massing tier 1 i'll up a few zigs if i need to help get me by and once the gargs are out the hunts go way down in value. It's like sure HU's could mass sorcs at tier 2 out of dual sanctums before UD gets inevitable destroyers, but any good HU doesn't do that, kinda like the hunts thing.

Anyways here's reasons why you get pwned going hunts first.

Here is what I saw in these replays:

Reason #1: Ok, so maybe there's an exception to "no good players ever go hunts vs. UD", but yet again moon is Always the exception because he's doin crazy shit all the time (mass fearie dragons?) Anyways, this is Spirit_Moon (you heard of him right?), on LostTemple (his favorite map) vs. Dae Hui Cho. Moon starts hunts, FoV starts dual crypt ghouls, he sees hunts, techs up. Here comes the gargs, down go the hunts, out come the archers, FoV wins this game needless to say.

In minute 18 moon teleports to save one of its expansions in an very unhappy manner with all his units squized together. His army had 4 hunt and the rest were a high upkeep of talon archer (peasant hp units). Moon's army was the perfect target for the powerfull nova+impale+anihilation orb combo.
Ironically with all those gargs the last unit who survived the retreat was one of the 4 hunt (so this wasn't a really garg vs hunt battle).
In minute 27 moon with archer+talon (and 1 hunt) totally owned ghoul+garg+destro
In minute 31 the DH was impaled while teleporting (he was harrassing alone) and killed.
THIS WAS THE MISTAKE OF MOON MAN, NOT THE STRATEGY, his lvl6 or 7 demon hunter counts alot in that strategy.

Reason #3: Another game on lost temple. This time between SK.HoT and Susiria. HoT is pretty good player, well known in Europe. He tries hunts like Moon did and gets wtfpwned because...well because he got hunts and gargs > hunts. Hunts make bad AA, so when UD techs you gotta either tech to dryads are start massing archers...he tried for dryads but alas...watch the game..Susiria is really freakin good

In minute 7 Hottie had 3 hunt (and Susiria had gargs); 3 hunt is NOT A MASS HUNT STRATEGY. Also Susiria managed to put on a run 5 gargs with 2 archers.
After that Hottie switched to bear strategy (probably because Susiria was getting so many gargs )
This was not such a nice game. I can't believe how low played Hottie.
In the end he switched again to dryads wich did good vs gargs but he got owned by 2 abo and some ghouls (also the statues counted alot for Susiria).

Reason #3: Dae Hui Cho Ladder Game (on Kalimdor of course)...NE goes for tavern hero + hunt build. Dae Hui Cho scouts this and the inevitable ensues. This is one of the games I was talking about earlier, it's on Turtle Rock close spawn and FoV gets mass alter cancels ftw! GG Hunts...dude shoulda gone archers, they woulda been able to defend against the ghouls.

The NE was in advantage here, and performed the most noobish attack against UD base with totally splitted hunt assault configuration. That is where he lost.

Reason #4: SK.HoT vs Vankor in Fnatic vs SK battle for WC3L. Again we see Hunts on LT, but not many because they suck phat *%&^# vs. UD. And again the NE will lose to ghoul/garg and destros for talons.

man, that Novopashin is funny. He ff DK with 3 archers and 2 talons neglecting the gargs. He killed one of his archers (off battle).
This game is not a good example.

Anyways...took forever to find those because well...no NE player worth shit goes Hunts vs UD because hunts don't help counter gargs. Even moon tried it and it didn't work out for him, he lost. It's like sure I could start with spiders and beat some noob, but if I'm actually trying to win I won't go spiders (unless its like best of 5 and I wanna switch it up).

U cannot say that u counter gargs with hunt because hunt come earlier in the game. Also the UD has to reach tier 3 faster than the opponent because his tier 2 is weak, if u get tier 2 very fast like any UD does, this doesn't mean that u have to mass gargs.
And like I said before, fiends vs hunt is perf damage vs perf damage but the fiend is in afvantage because he just changes the target the hunt moves to change target and also the fiends can ff more effective.

 

[FeRN@n2]

Hey guys about the garg/hunt thing, you will never find a perfect example or replay of it. Because it depends on the on the number of units (asumming you wouldnt just go massing hunts/gargs that sounds really weird), you have to have some ghouls or archers even if u harrass dont you think? It also depends on the heroes, tech, micro, the map and even the items!
My first thread here and it has already 2 pages lol