Some ladder Numbers

[AHappyChineseBoy]

Your so very wrong. Archers can own gargoyles focus fired or not. With an army of about 20-30 I'm sure youll own anything. A DH with burn/evasion would own the UD army with a pot. All you have to do is burn the CL so he can't impale. A potm with searing arrows would be doing the most damage since it ranges from +10-30 damage. A Warden with FoK would own gargoyles also since it's AOE. Hunts may die to gargoyles, but ghouls die to hunts in a matter of seconds.

UD isn't that over-ridicously overpowered, I admit that the 3 UD heroes are strong, but 3 HU heroes are stronger. Fiends do a lot of damage for being a t1 unit but they're also very slow and can be killed with focus fire. You're obviously not comparing from experience, you're just going along with the rest of the crowd saying that UD is unbalanced, when in fact, NE is pretty imbalanced also.

This may be off topic but:
Let me explain, NE have moonwells, the strongest air unit, the strongest tier 1, the toughest ground unit and they have dispel early game till the end. They have dragons who will rape statues/necros or anything that you want it to rape. NE has a potm that has a huge damage input, a kotg with that gayass entangle roots spell, a DH that can rape most of your heroe's mana, and a warden who could AOE your ass. I think NE is fine the way it is. UD is fine the way it is also, if anything needs a buff, it's human because thier units die to easy.

 

[Equalizer]

Why the hell are people complaining about the imbalance of the races?!?! Play the game and have fun! YOSH!

 

[Emperor Pan I]

if anything needs a buff, it's human because thier units die to easy.

Only thing I do not agree with. humans are the most balanced and strongest race. ahs been since begining of the game

 

[Theroy]

1.16 I can agree with that. 1.17 human are the new attack move race. I mean the bloodmage is a god and footmen counter peirce on there own. And there one weakness a harass has been fixed because there towers.!

 

[BluddLuSt4Life]

There is no attack move race, if there was my win percentage would be a lot higher. Undead was close in beta, Night elf was almost there with the beastmaster pre 1.13... but you still need to press some buttons

 

[AHappyChineseBoy]

I have to disagree with you on the human thing there, pan. But maybe we can start a new topic because i dont want to trail off the subject because people will definately complain =)

 

[warcraft3_hacker]

lol theory.
the ud race isn't imbalanced all ace are balanced.
but the only 1 thing not balanced is player's micro so the win or lose defend in skills not the race.

 

[VBadGirl]

Your so very wrong. Archers can own gargoyles focus fired or not. With an army of about 20-30 I'm sure youll own anything. A DH with burn/evasion would own the UD army with a pot. All you have to do is burn the CL so he can't impale. A potm with searing arrows would be doing the most damage since it ranges from +10-30 damage. A Warden with FoK would own gargoyles also since it's AOE. Hunts may die to gargoyles, but ghouls die to hunts in a matter of seconds.

UD isn't that over-ridicously overpowered, I admit that the 3 UD heroes are strong, but 3 HU heroes are stronger. Fiends do a lot of damage for being a t1 unit but they're also very slow and can be killed with focus fire. You're obviously not comparing from experience, you're just going along with the rest of the crowd saying that UD is unbalanced, when in fact, NE is pretty imbalanced also.

This may be off topic but:
Let me explain, NE have moonwells, the strongest air unit, the strongest tier 1, the toughest ground unit and they have dispel early game till the end. They have dragons who will rape statues/necros or anything that you want it to rape. NE has a potm that has a huge damage input, a kotg with that gayass entangle roots spell, a DH that can rape most of your heroe's mana, and a warden who could AOE your ass. I think NE is fine the way it is. UD is fine the way it is also, if anything needs a buff, it's human because thier units die to easy.

One single word... LOL.

don't give up your daily job dude and keep playing. I refuse to get into a polemic but NE don't have by far nor the strongest air (UD has it) nor the strongest ground (orc hast it), nor the best earlier dispel (HUM has it)... and those dryads work only in limited conditions . As for flaring the statues is useless. is the same as you flare the priests. you have to flare a spell caster with a much greater damage than 10. like slow, skellies, bloodlust.. etc.

DH will NEVER keep up with coil and nova + impale. he is dead after the second coil and i can prove you if you are willing.

Potm is decent and kotg is good only early on, harass shit.

as for warden... she will never survive the second coil anyway. a lvl 3 coil + lvl 2 nova + a little ff and she is already finished.

I have seen a NE killing an ud with 1 kotg and 3 dryads but that doesn't mean NE's have the upper hand in the game, nor that they do great in ud matches.

today I had a match and high lvl of nova was able to kill an entire army of grunts. I had Lich+dk + fiends+ statues.

UD are harder to mater for one main reason. Great timing is essential while playing this race ..but the rest...

 

[Aragorn7]

All I know is that the ladder numbers that you presented aren't a good indication of anything. There are too many variables left unaccounted for. In simple terms, balance is impossible to reach with Warcraft 3. There is no way for it to become balanced in any situation. The patches have almost went in a complete circle.

I think that the UD buff really really made UD a more effective race. And thus, at the same time "overpowered". They have nerfed, but I personally don't think it was enough. The necromancer is still too powerful, end of story.

 

[BluddLuSt4Life]

They are both too strong, and too weak. I see necromancers from almost every undead player on the RT ladder, when random comes up undead, I usually make necromancers myself. But in a recent solo game against a level 40+ Night elf opponent, I got the necrowagon rolling good, with 4-5 wagons and 11 necros and a lich, and he just kept detonating my skeletons and running away. I killed his base and expansion, then lost to level 7 warden and level 6 DH, and the one chimera he managed to build. All my skeletons were just free experience. That might have been my saddest game of warcraft yet, owned by wisps =(

Overall, warcraft is close to balanced though. I cant remember a single game, won or lost, that I could point to imbalance as the deciding factor, either I was better, or my opponent was end of story.

 

[Aragorn7]

They are both too strong, and too weak. I see necromancers from almost every undead player on the RT ladder, when random comes up undead, I usually make necromancers myself. But in a recent solo game against a level 40+ Night elf opponent, I got the necrowagon rolling good, with 4-5 wagons and 11 necros and a lich, and he just kept detonating my skeletons and running away. I killed his base and expansion, then lost to level 7 warden and level 6 DH, and the one chimera he managed to build. All my skeletons were just free experience. That might have been my saddest game of warcraft yet, owned by wisps =(

Overall, warcraft is close to balanced though. I cant remember a single game, won or lost, that I could point to imbalance as the deciding factor, either I was better, or my opponent was end of story.

Yes, close but not perfect.

I have had a game like that too.
I felt very sad afterwards, because a bunch of archers and a warden pwned me.

 

[AHappyChineseBoy]

To Aragorn, i think for one, that blizzard is doing good. If this game is too balanced, then this game would be boring in my opinion.

To Vbad,
Chims are especially good in team games. Just not massed. They rape ground units better then Frost Wyrms in my opinion.

I said toughest ground, not strongest. I know orc has taurens, but NE on the other hand have Mountain giants. With harden skin and (what 10 armor?) 1600 life, this easily puts them at the top. Oh, theyre tier 2 also.

Again, the earliest dispel is NE. You forgot wisps sweetheart. Wisps, only being 70 gold will be just as effective as dispel. Theyre great scouts even if you dont use dispel anyways.

Dragons do a lot of damage, after 5 seconds, which I assume is 5 heals (50 hp) statues are down to 25%-50% hp. I dont recall but if you watch next time, flare takes down health pretty damn fast.

Anti-Magic pots? Please, one of those would suffice against a nuke. Long enough for about 2 burns from the DK's low mana pool. Impale already can only be used 2-3 times before it drains the CL's pool. Unless the CL or DK has a pendant, its 2 more coils, and 1 more impale, but that's not worry, burn will take care of it + the fact that youll have pots and most likely rejuvenation from your bears.
As far as warden/kotg/potm : Anti Magic pots, again. If you dont have them, a simple pot will do...

As far as your game went, I HOPE YOU DO REALIZE, THAT HIGH LEVELED SPELLS TEND TO DO MORE DAMAGE. AND WHEN YOU HAVE A LOT OF DAMAGE, THEN YOU'LL KILL A LOT OF WEAK UNITS.

--And just for the record, Warcraft isnt my life. If it were my life i'd be 2000-500, talk like a fa.ggot, and would post on every single thread there is on warcraft.

 

[warcraft3_hacker]

man u just understand necros spell < priest dispell
necros spell < drydas
and there is no unbalanced u call unbalanced when u build mele and ur enemy air lol.
and won can counter skellies

 

[VBadGirl]

lol boy.. if you dispel with wisps early on your NE economy is ****ed up and how many wisps go to dispel in tier 2 and reach their target? close to none. they are too weak (just 120 hp) and they move too slow.

toughest ground NE? get the **** outta here... by far NE don't have it. giants might have 1600 but they are ridiculously slow cool down and they are meant to absorb ranged attacks which NE is weak against (thats why the medium armour).

hunts are effective only tier 1 and archers are a joke, any aoe ***es them right up. and dots? come on.

LOL you remind just a game i had today. I have given up playing NE in solo and i have started UD on a more serious note. I went out to practice and i got a NE who went DH. he got giants, hunts, dryads, talons and archers. ALL i had were 3 units; fiends, statues and gargs accompanied by 3 heroes, dk + Lich + cl.

DH? never survived longer than 10 sec to nova, coil and impale. nor the rest of the units. And those 10 armour giants you said, did shit.

Maybe wc3 is not your life but WC3 is my job. you find the site in my sigitar if you like knowing more about wc3. I have just started the strategy series and i have 20-30 articles coming so stick around. They aren't NE articles (even though my main race is NE) so variety will never be an issue.

 

[Aragorn7]

To Aragorn, i think for one, that blizzard is doing good. If this game is too balanced, then this game would be boring in my opinion.

Blizzard is not doing good. By introducing two new heros, they just messed up the balance again. They are doing OK.

The only problem I have with it, is that WC3 is impossible to completely balance. Starcraft is very easy to balance. Possibly the flaw is that WC3 wasn't made so it could be balanced easily?

It wouldn't matter anyways because balance != fun. I was having more fun during the beastmaster days than 1.15+.

 

[Beer $lut]

Battle.nets xp system is ****ed. I remeber when level 15 was actually hard to get.

 

[Emperor Pan I]

Battle.nets xp system is ****ed. I remeber when level 15 was actually hard to get.

It isn't ****ed up, its better this way actualy.

 

[AHappyChineseBoy]

Aragorn, think about how many units/spells/abilities/heroes/costs/foods there are in the game. Then think about taking all of those things and think about how hard it would be to manage those things in a game. Blizzard has gotten it to the point where you atleast CAN already have a decent game. By adding 2 more heroes, they didn't really make it that much imbalanced, they made it more funner. Anyways after a couple of weeks, i'll assure you that those heroes will be better balanced.

(Also take note, this is another reason why warcraft is better then starcraft.

To VBad: lol.
let me first congragulate you on your job, but that still doesn't change the fact that what you believe is what is true. Ive played warcraft since the first day it has came out so I hope you can tell that I know about enough about all 4 races.

Again, MGs are the toughest ground unit. They have a lot of defense/armor/health/reduced damage.. what's so hard to understand about that? Any decent player with brains could figure that taunt has a long cooldown. that's why you dont mass them, and especially not in solo. This is why MG is awesomely good in team.

What exactly is wrong with talons anyways? Fairy fire reduces armor -5 and they give you vision. Combine that with an archer on focus fire and any unit will be taken down in a second. In a solo game, AOE is no big issue because you can easily move out the way. In a team game, of course AOE will rape your range, but mgs would make up for it.

I hope you realize that by the time you get something to dispel(besides the wolfies from a fs) youll already have a steady income of wood. Ive played NE enough to know that a 2-3 wisps will not SEVERELY hinder your resources. Even if you manage to hit tier 2, wisps move pretty fast and youll need fast reflexes to see a wisp coming, while microing your units AND casting spells. (..That is if you do micro.)

Wow, youve remind me of the large amount of games ive played in my life. Let me describe one particular game I recall from memory. The person I played has gone out to get a DH with pots and raped all my heroes mana so I couldnt do anything at all. Then he took his bear, rejuvenated the DH when he was getting low, and used roar to increase his range units damage. Oh also, he had a warden and was constantly using that fork spell taking out my fiends 1 by 1. First he focused on my destroyers, then he focused on my statues. Oh, did I mention that he has been constantly burning my mana? Ive tried and nuke the DH and Ive managed to get a single nuke, but unfortunately he was only at high-red life. Oh, but a pot saved his life and he was back to yellow. At this point my fiends are getting cut 1 by 1 and still the most Ive killed were a few dotts and archers. I think Ive managed to kill his level 3 warden but that was after I lost about 3 fiends. Itd be the same situation with a CL also. Burn the CL, and youd only have about 2 more chances for Impale unless hed burn you again.

Im not saying NE isnt that overpowered, but im not saying that UD is overpowered either. I find them perfect the way they are. ..Again I must say, HU still needs a buff.

 

[BluddLuSt4Life]

When you play NE, healing scrolls > Aoe spells, at least until they hit level 3. Especially if you have 2 heros and a scroll on each hero. Costs a lot, but less than replacing your whole army. If you have a demon hunter, thats adds up to a lot of wasted mana...

 

[VBadGirl]

what is wrong with talons? well nothing much except the fact they are the weakest, crappiest spell-caster wc3 has. In rest nothing much. Plus if i recall well they are going to get another nerf.

a giant will never win against tauren and plz for the love of god stop saying they are the greatest. in tier 2 beside the fact, they give a shit load of XP to enemy heros... they aren't that great. Giants are hardly used, in team and in solo and the reason is more than obvious. I also have told you why and i will repeat.. no matter how hard blizzard has tough they will fix NE (or balance) by giving them the Giant... they didn't succeed at all. even if you taunt, a person with good micro will re-issue the command to attack other units rather than the giants. they really don't worth shit. Its super expensive, shit load of food, gives huge XP, they have an insane long cool down and they are getting a nerf in 1.17.

I don't give a flying shit to be honest, you'll still die at your opinion but that doesn't make right, and one last thing. Explain why DeadMan is playing Orcs against Undead players. I bet not because NE is too good and he is bored from winning so many games. If giants would be the answer don't you think he would include them? hmmmmm.

And if his DH was screwing you with DK and Lich.. then sorry my friend you completely suck.
1. coil does far more damage
2. he will never be able to burn 2-3 heroes
3. nova is more damaging that coil because it allows you to ff while he is slowed
4. you have statues
5. the same way he had pot you should have had one also, as long DK cannot heal himself..
6. he has low HP due the fact he is an agility hero.

Buying 2-3 scroll of healing? unlike UD which have that item in their own racial shop... you probably think you'll be able to camp around getting them all the time.

well if NE lacks in something is healing during combat. human has priests, orc has doctors while ud has statues.