I've been living a lie..there's nothing inside...or about SOUL.

Tempest Storm

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I'll show you.

Love makes someone want to give up their own lives for someone else.


Animals will do this. Perhaps not for love, but they will sacrifice themselves, or put themselves at great risk for the good of their clan, mate, species, whatever. And mixed with a culture where self sacrifice is almost glorified in war movies and such, no soul at all needed.

Love makes sacrifices and love is more concerned for the other person's well being.
Society teaches this. We've all been raised on it. Movies, music, parents, culture as a whole.

You asshole, you edited on me. :p

how can they? social structure and influence maybe but i still think there are more to people than just chemicals. There is something in humans that is connected to something supernatural, and that isn't an illusion or a social construct. There are ideas of morality, right and wrong, if there were no intrinsic basis for these then 'society' or 'culture' would have forgotten or abandoned them

God accounts for ALOT of things too - doesn't mean you believe it
I told you, morals first originated in society, as a means for a large number of ppl to live together peacefully in a small space and to keep the society together and fuctioning.

Like what?
 

Jaden

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oh ok.. lol i keep forgetting that you believe we evolved from monkeys:p it makes things so much more difficult :D

hehe yeh i edited cause i thought u might be going around proving you were a good mod and deleting posts that didn't back up ideas :p

When do animals do that spike?
 

Tempest Storm

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Till you can prove otherwise. ;)

Since when do I need a reason to go around deleting posts. :D

All the time. I've seen it several times. Part of their instinct.
 

Gedrin

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Proving or disproving the existance of the soul is harder than it first appears.
The soul is basically a construct. A construct basically being an entity that is not physical, as in it cannot be seen touched felt etc. but we know or think it is there.
A good example of a construct is conciousness. You cannot touch it feel it taste it but you know it is there because you know.
Humans are a social animal, and unique in many ways. It was belived that we are unique in that we have a soul, that was supposed to seperate us from the other animals.
It is true that emotions are chemically based, but the triggers are unknown to a fair extent. After all we are not even close to understanding the human body in either entierty or even a good amount of what happens.
But I digress, it is easy to accept one contruct, conciousness. Therefore we can accept the contruct as a thing. the question then is what motivates us? We would like to believe that we are special and strong and smart, but we are very frail compared to a lot of other animals. Somewhere back in our history we began utilizing altruism for survival purposes amoung other rare if not nonexistant traits for other animals. So what drives this? Sacrificing yourself gives no survival advantage unless you protect your progeny in doing so. Conceptually this poses a big question of how altruism as an example proved evolutionarily advantageous in humans initially so that it could be spread.

A few possible counterpoints to no soul argument.

If the soul somehow holds dominion over these chemical reactions then that would explain why emotions can be explained as if by chemical causes. Not really something that can be either proven or disproven according to what we know about the human body thus far.

It can also be said that the humans spread all across the world had knowledge of something they thought was a center of consciousness, the soul. If these ideas were incommunicable across the large sea distances that had to be traversed to form the original colonies in america for example due to simply not knowing of these continents and not being able to previously get to america, then that points to an innate sense of a governing entity within the body.

It can also be said that we interact with the environment to develop these emotions that we have, yet they seem to be innate.

Well between the 3 hours of sleep before today and the 17 hours I have been up today/technically yesterday I am getting a little sleepy, go figure.
 

MacMan

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God accounts for ALOT of things too
That's his biggest flaw: he exists only to explain the unknown
 

VBadGirl

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Originally posted by MacMan
I know about the biology of the brain, what I'm saying is...
Imaging a movie theatre, with a projector and a screen. The light is caught on the screen and displayed as an image right? And we see the image, the screen doesn't "see" the image. So if we are the screen, and the world is the projector, how is it that we can see an image in our thought, rather, what is thought in and of itself? How can we see the image? When we see something, we aren't seeing it as light bouncing off of our brains, but rather projected into our thought, but how can that be? All that's happening is light stimulating a few organic cells, how does that make a collective conscious entity?

edit: aka what is the link between your mental mind and the physical world?...
hehe what u talking about is the optic nerv and about the projection spot. its done with the eye and the image ur eye sees is actually vitual, small and upside-down..the brain converts to the real deal :p.

the colours are the reflection of the light..it creates the differnt shades or colours.

the link between mind and physical world are sences. touch, smell..pressure..etc :p.

I see nothing supernatural in humans except chemicals..which u cannot control and u cannot avoid. u can supress it for a while but u cannot avoid it for long. its like u are hungry but u suppress it but u will eventually eat because ur instinct of survival takes over and u'll do it.( im talking about normal persons..not emotionally mutilated such as bulimics and anorexic ppl)
 

aphextwin

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I think we become ghosts when we die in this world... and we can go inside people's dreams.... although im not sure about souls, i highly believe in ghosts :\
 

MacMan

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I know that VB, I'm saying what SEES the colors? They eye is only there to translate light into data, but what is actually seeing that?
 

VBadGirl

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nope wrong not the eye transforms it but the brain. as i said the eye doest see it correctly it sees it upside down...the brain translate the impluses and geneartesthe real image u actually see.

Ur eye sees the colours as i said it's an optical ilusion :p...like that funny pic zaku put and made u believe they move when in reality they didnt.

Its a big theory with colours and the perception but the convo would get rather scientifical and not very easy to digest for some of the readers.

One thing i can tell u for sure..u dont see with ur soul and u dont sense with it.
 

MacMan

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I'm not saying you see with your soul, I don't believe in them, but I know the biology of the brain. You are totally missing the philosophical end of my argument:
A thought is not a physical thing. Anything that exists in the physical realm is subject to measurement, however, you cannot "measure" a thought. You can measure chemicals in the brain, but those are not thoughts. What you're saying is that the eye just sends info to the brain and that's how your mind sees, so you're saying a physical body translates a physical energy into physical data, to produce a conscious thought outside of the physical realm.
An eye, the brain, whatever, does not produce thought. All they are are billions of little cells, which just cart around some amino acids and give off sparks, they are not capable of thought, but you're trying to say they are. If all it takes is a lens to transfer light to some organic neurons to see, then why is it impossible to recreate?
 

Ronin

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There is no proof that we have a soul,
but ofcourse there is no proof that there isnt one either,
a soul is made of energy, i can bend mine to my will (i dont mean i can see into ur mind!! i can project feelings stronger), which is my so many people 'think' they fall in love with me. also love is an energy,beleive it or not.
go do tai chi or somethin... you might learn from there, just ask ur teacher if he can help with focusing ur energy to ur navel, just ask that k.
u cant explain love other than saying it is energy, it is NOT a feeling
 

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Originally posted by Ronin
u cant explain love other than saying it is energy, it is NOT a feeling
Energy is the action and our feelings (like love or hate or whatever) are the reaction.
 

VBadGirl

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actually mac u can measure the feelings by measuring the chemicals. For example serotonin is the drug of happiness..u got more of it..u are happier..u got less u feel down. Another exapmple..adrenalin..and nor-adrenalin (this is for an usual stress like everyday work)...more of it u feeling more stressed, more angry. so there are feelings that u can measure comparing some of the chemicals in ur body. Mebbe not all but there are plenty.

I know what tai chi is..and yes i belive that we do have energy. Our all body relates on energy... like i said the brain is the computer cpu..but a computer to run it needs energy. same happends to us also.

If we get into physisc..everything has energy..even a point that doesnt move has.(static eneregy)..soeverything around us starts and finishes with energy.

Why u think food is measured in KJ...and energy scale..?? go figure :p.
 

MacMan

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A chemical is NOT a thought. If I spill some Neurotrophin—4 on a rock, I don't say it's going to be the next Einstein. A chemical is a chemical, it is physical. If a thought were physical, other people would be able to see, measure, and know what you're "thoughts" are.
 

VBadGirl

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heheh mac..the brain generates the tought, but the chemicals influences which kinda of though is...good or bad. u know those ppl that are maniaco depressive. why arent they able to control thier thoughts to be able to lift themselves from the misery they feel? well just coz they got an essetial mineral missing..Lithium. why do u think they take it as supply?

That rock will not start reacting becoz that rock is not made of living tisue and doesnt got a brain to be influenced by it. is like u spill water over it..but we all know that water is essetial to live..and so its air. that rock doesnt need to breath. can be on the bottom of the ocean or in a cave without air.

U cannot compare a rock with a human body..no now, not ever :p.

as i said u can measure a feeling by the lvls of the chemicals u got inside ur blood. u cannot say although..today he is 65% more down than he was yesty..
 

MacMan

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I'm not talking about what influences the thoughts, I'm talking about the thoughts themselves. Can you tell me where the thought in your head right now is located? No... The best you can say is that there are some chemicals mixed with organic materials. How is that a thought? It's not, quite simply... it's just some chemicals mixed with organic materials. Even If I make brain matter in a lab and dip it in calcitonin, it doesn't start stimulating someone's thoughts.
 

VBadGirl

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heheheh i could make a joke and say good thoughts are located on right and bad on the left... of course u cannot say this is the spot.

the thoughtsare a mixute or chemicals, surroundings..a though is a responce to something. U got exam on monday..u are thinking about it. Some1 treated u bad or was rude to u..u thinking how good it was if u could say something..but he's ur boss.

the toughts are nothing else but a reaction to the outside stimulus...or something from the past.

Say it isnt so now :p.
 

Tempest Storm

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We know what creates thoughts. We know the scientific aspect, the biologicl aspect of it all. Mac's point, correct me if I'm wrong here, is, what makes thoughts thoughts. Thoughts are more than just chemicals and reactions. They almost have a life of their own. To form an idea, to analyze things, that has to be more than mere chemicals.
 

kamille

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Wow we have goten far away from the soul discussion.
Nevermind here is some stuff about thoughts.

I am an IT Student and a friend of mine is makin a final exam about neurally (/neuronural) Nets .
To keep it simple, these are Nets that are builded out of knots. Each Knot can only contain 1 state choosen from 2 (yes/no;0/1).
If you however train these nets, to give you an answer or a decision to a question, you can monitor how the net evolves.
By training i mean to input some information, then ask something about it, and to give feedback to the net if the answer was correct.
With this method you can build nets, that will give you correct answers to questions like "Is this black or white" for example.
You can now put more of these nets together to make a new structure that can decide even more, by using the presets of the implemented nets. This new structer will also evolve with every question.

So let us asume this could represant a human brain. It would have learnd all the information that we learn in our childhood, thru experience, whatever.
As a sidenote i like to mention, that there are scientist that believe, if they measure brainwaves long and detailed enough, and the measured person tells them everytime what he thinks, they could determin what he is thinking just by the results of scanning which part of the brain is activated. Similar to the example of the connected nets, where every net has its specific function.

But we know defenetly, that this neurally (/neuronural) nets don't have thoughts like we know them. So what are they missing asuming the net structures are equal to our brain?

Simple answer its the Cerebral cortex!
Most (if not all, i don't know for sure) animals are missing it, or haven't evolved it as much as humans.

So why is this Cerebral cortex so important. Because the results that our "Net/Brain" produces when we are stimulated by an attraction, is somewhat bounced back by it.

It's like there is another net, controlling the results of the first one.
Is this true; what else do i know; connect the results with my experience .... much much more.
The Cerebral cortex is somewhat supervising the results the rest of the brain is producing. Not all of them, not all the time, like you don't need to concentrate on breathing to do it all the time. So there are some things that are totaly controled by our brain and we are unaware of it, cause it is not producing this "voice" someone spoke of, that we hear in our brain while thinking. Simply because it is not "reflected" by our Cerebral cortex.

So thoughts are basicly the interaction part between our 2 nets. Lets call them the momory part of the brain and the Cerebral cortex both stimulated thru our senses.

You aren't convinced by this, i know.
You might say that this couldn't explain why you hear yourself speak in your mind.
Let me tell you one more thing, after following my post to this point:
Human thinking is affected much thru our usage of language.
When there has been no language at all, there were also thoughts. They just were not words, i think they could have been pictures and sounds. From that on sounds evolved to speech, thru the training of our "nets".

So i think, the idea of a soul, which another person described as been spread all over the world as the same, is originated in the way we think. The way we think determins the way we get aware of our consciousness. And our consciousness in nothing more then 2 parts of our brain arguing with one another stimulated by our senses and translated to speech by the part of the brain that contains the native language.

Since this post is not in my native language, i can only hope i told you what i wanted to tell :)

(Posts in arcane are the most difficult ones :) )
 

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I told u what creates the toughts..an outside stimulus... like this topic...i made u think..to give me ur toughts..right?

The world outside and the brain. and u know whats intresing? even when u sleep ur brain is still working. those dreams are miss-interprets (aberation) or the brain...probably not to get bored :p.

and plus i think kammile expalin at a more scintificall approach what i wanted to say. In my oppinion this is what we are a pack of cells controled by a brain.
 

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