Originally posted by IGTHORN
God does not exist but humans do have a sense of spirituality, you cannot deny that. Try meditating and you will see for yourself. If God created every single one of us then why is there suffering? Would you put your child into a ghetto? To grow up and become a criminal? Do you realise that your belief system is based entirely on your upbringing? So if god chooses your parents then he can either make or break your life...
Religion was createed by early man as a means of controlling the populace, whitch doctors made the first early religions by making the townspeople belive that they had special divine powers and thus controlling them. religion also plays an important part in society as it gives people a belief system which everyone needs. Even atheists believe in something, they have spirituality. I would classify myself as an atheist only because I don't believe in a god but I do believe in souls and other things.
No-one here should say that they either do or don't believe in their theory before they have actually EXTENSIVELY researched the other persons point of view. Go to places such as
www.thiaoouba.com
www.meditationcenter.com
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
And find some for yourself.
I must also state right now that I respect everyone else's viewpoint and I am in no way trying to convert you. You need to make sure that you have enough reason to back your BELIEF (after all we are creatures of reason)
Peace
Jon
Finally, someone actually saying something instead of just bashing religion. I would say that you are mostly right aboot people's belief systems being based on their upbringing. I would say that people live under the belief system of their parents politically and religiously for some amount of time- for some it's until they're an early teenager, for some, regrettably, they never find their own views. Many people in the Church's I attend, both young and old, have doubted their religous beliefs, and have looked elsewhere and experimented. I have myself. I have also done my homework in that area- I've read about other religions, and understand many of their philosophies decently well, especially compared to many other Christians who are afraid to acknowledge any possibilty of some groups in other belief systems, and call those who do evil heathens. Back to my original statements now...I believe there is a time in the lives of most people when they either formulate views on their own, apart from their parents, or realize that they do agree, on their own terms, with what their parents believed. I believe this as I have seen it happen in the lives of myself and many others.
Now, to refute the problem of evil...joy
First it must be proven that there is a God to prove this. I already have posted what I believe constitutes proof of a god's existence, so I'll just to some copyage and pastage...
The first assumption Christianity makes is that there is a God. If there is not a God, religion is worthless. I believe in God for several reasons. First, because the world exists. Something had to have either intelligently designed the world, or have set into motion the sequence of evolution. By the way, I don't believe in evolution, but I'm smart enough to realize that evolution in no way refutes belief in God and that it's really not that big of a threat to Christianity, which is a point that much of the Christian establishment could do well to take. Secondly, because of absolutes I believe in God. This one is more complex, so bear with me. People are born with a sense of right and wrong. If you don't believe in that, I can prove that to whoever disagrees, but for now I'll take it as a universally accepted principle. Wise people before Christ have come to the same ethical, social, and philosophical principles as Christ's teachings held to be true, without influence of the Hebrew nation. The fact that everyone knows certain things to be right and wrong shows that there is either some sort of extremely odd evolutionary thing, or that God implanted certain laws into our mental makeup. These are, I believe, the two strongest philosophical reasons for which I believe in God.
Secondly, it must be proven that God was in some way responsible for creating the world, or at least man. I am in no way good at defending creationism, so I won't try to, I will just argue from God creating man. God created man because, of all animals, we are the only ones who have the capacity to think and reason in an advanced manner. Our brains and emotions and capacity to reason and think are so complex, that it would either have taken several trillion years to evolve just the brain, or there must have been some sort of intelligent designer involved...some sort of deity, whether it be the One i believe in, which i believe it was, or whether it was some other one, and I'm wrong about my religion. The second possibility, though not very likely, is more likely than the first, so I will take that as the truth.
Now, if God created the world, it would stand to reason that he created it to be good- no rational being, which God would have to have been to have created at least humans, would create something to be seriously flawed, and evil is the most serious of all flaws possible.
Now that I've laid the foundation to this argument, I'll make the actual argument. I submit that evil is not an actual entity, but the absence of good- just as dark is not it's own entity, but merely the absence of light. An object- a sword, for example, is not inherently evil. Not even the strike of the sword that sever's a head is evil- to do so, it must be a 'good'( well executed, skilled, and correct) stroke. The evil, or lack of good, is in the intent and the flaw of the soul/morals/being of the killer. The evil is not in the creator of the sword either- he made the sword most likely to defend the innocent when he is attacked, or to destroy those who have done great wrong. If evil were a tangible thing, it would not change- I am not saying this from the stance of a relatavist, but it will sound like that. I am not a relatavist. It is sometimes right to say something that is not true (i.e. lying), because it is not lying. For example, during world war 2, someone is hiding a few Jews somewhere. The SS comes to their house, and asks if there are any Jews there. The owner of the house says no, as he/she does not wish for the innocent Jews to be horrifically killed. The owner of the house has not told a lie, as the SS had no right, let alone any reason, to be told the truth. Evil changes, but good does not- protecting the innocent is always good, for example.
To avoid getting charged with plagiarism, some of the argument is based off some stuff in Peter Kreeft's Handbook of Christian Apologetics.
Congratulations to anyone who actually read this stuff.
Oh, and by the way, IGTHORN, welcome to the forums.
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