Affirmative action

[OniSyphon]

Originally posted by amrtin77
i hate this useless argument. you know as well as i do that i have never enslaved anyone and no blacks *(except really old ones who dont work anyways) have been slaves. why should what our ancestors done have ANY affect on today? it should be taught so it is not repeated, but not used for laws.

u say more white people are on welfare. true, but this is because 75 americans are white, AND if more white peopel are on welfare then why should minorities get help when theres other people that are jsut as deserving that have white skin. I AM ALL FOR HELPING PEOPLE THAT NEED MONEY FOR COLLEGE, BUT NOT BASED ON SKIN COLOR. and jobs based on skin color? there is no good reason AT ALL for that. ok, EVEN IF the fact that blacks were slaves was an argument for affirmative action, why should mexicans get help? and why dont jews or asians get help?

racism today is NOTHING. hell, theres more racism directed towards white people in my school, but no one gives a damn. no one should. you have to be VERY mentally weak to let it get to you.the only reason racism is made out to be a bgi deal is because organizations like the NAACP that have lost their usefulness now make money by screaming "RACISM" to any white who does ANYTHING against a minority even if it was the right thing to do.

There really isn't an argument here ^ sorry.

First off the fact that black people have to pay for the situations that there ancestors were put in affect them. So you feel that your history shouldn't affect you? You think that a black whose father had the credentials to get a job as a chef but was denied and thus forced to work as a busboy for less money as his white co-worker doesn't affect him? Do you know there are still adults in the work force who may have had to go to a segregated school that taught them less than white kids of their generation. Don't act like this stuff was happening years ago. If nothing changes radically (like during radical reconstruction where black people were actually being helped immensely) then what gets passed down to the next generation? Prior generations affect the next generation and poverty gets passed down.

Those same white people pretty much had the same chances as almost every other white person. It's really no one else's fault they have decided to not work for a better life when no one was OPPRESSING them. The jews wern't slaves, neither was the mexicans or asians. Plus jews got reperations for the halocaust (which we had no involvement in but I had a sense you may go there) and so did the japanese who were oppressed in WWII and put in internment camps. Mexicans I don't remember ever being under any serious type of oppression, kinda hard and all saying they have their own nation. Something that neither the black or jewish groups in this country didn't really have. Also to my knowledge Affirmative Action does support mexicans and asians as well.

I really don't see how the NAACP does scream racisms whenever they see white people do anything but enlighten me because I don't really keep up with what they do now days besides giving Image Awards to men who may be suspected of statutory rape. As for racism not existing...go to any southern nation with a black friend and lets see how the experience is. You probably won't even have to go south because I've seen racial slurs graffitied on walls of high schools as far up as Maryland. Saying that there are way more white people then black people in this nation I doubt many white people really can feel discriminated against from a complete statistical point of view and all.

Did you know Alabama just now legalized a law on the books that said interracial marriages were illegal? Interesting...

 

[Gedrin]

Those same white people pretty much had the same chances as almost every other white person. It's really no one else's fault they have decided to not work for a better life when no one was OPPRESSING them. The jews wern't slaves

So a white kid born in a ghetto in Chicago has the same chances that a white kid born into an upper class family that places him/her in all the best prep schools to get into a good college? Hmm intersting. Class structure couldn't be important at all. Nope every white person on earth is born filthy rich, and all minorities are born in varying degrees of poverty.

As far as opression what about Russians during the Mc Carthy era. I would call being blacklisted everywhere opression. I would also call Russians white. In fact when a new wave of immigrants would come into the country they would be viewed as a threat. Someone new to take their jobs. So the Irish were opressed too. In fact all ethnic groups were opressed to one degree or another here in the United States.

Historically the Jews were enslaved in ancient egypt too if memory serves correct. So even though they were not recently enslaved they have been in the past. They still have to put up with hate crimes too.

Also lets not forget indentured servitude. A system that could be fairly easily manipulated to keep a person as a slave almost indefinately.

What it comes down to is giving an equal opportunity, and not tipping the scales either way. No organization has done this, and none will for a long time, maybe never.

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Ok, we’re all going a bit off-topic here, But I think we will all agree that any sort of discrimination based on race is wrong. However in a scenario of a white man having a conflict of some kind with a black man neither should get jumped on for racism if they both have legitimate reasons, non-racial motives.

No one I hope here truly believes that all the discrimination in the past a good thing, you’re government is attempting to correct that, though they are in the attempt discriminating others. There are standards, and they should be applied to everyone not just whites or any sort of minority. I do believe help should be given to blacks who have been living in lower standards than the majority but this should apply to every one.

Instead of just shoving the underprivileged people into schools why don’t they try to help them reach the standards of these colleges, universities ect. Affirmative is definitely not the way to do it, though it was a thoughtful attempt to level things out a bit. I know it isn’t a perfect world and racism will exist after I’m dead but does that stop us trying? Hell no.

many people felt inspired by what i just wrote

 

[B)ushid(o]

Are the people benefiting from affirmative action the people who were slaves? No. The people who are losing out on jobs and places in colleges were never slave owners. What is the point in making future generations suffer for the crimes that were commited by past generations?

 

[ORC-r0x0r-ROC]

Jackalopes, shut up and stop spamming.

I know it isn't helping the people who were slaves, but as long ago as that was. The decendents are still living in standards far below that of a a white person. What the goverment tried to do is give them an education, it seemed like a smart idea then but it is greatly disaproved of here.

The last two posts I've seen from jackalopes has both been spam and I have reported them both

 

[mistro5000]

i think it is a system that supports racism by saying that black people cant get into college on their own which is FINE WITH ME
if they want to be racist, i dont care. they can be racist if it benifits me. i am mixed and i dont care about ideals or any of that crap. you are all gouing to see me as black and poor no matter what i do so why not take advantage of it? i act white now because i live in wisconsin and it benifits me. sure the lady at 7 11 stares at me while i buy stuff, and the people at the museum think my white dad is in the big broher program, but it is a small price to pay when i can use your steriotypes for my advantage. when i apply for college, i will turn my back on the white community and become black to take what is mine because of the system just like i have turned my back on the black community

 

[itchmahballz]

ok yea um im totally lost

 

[Gedrin]

you are all gouing to see me as black and poor no matter what i do

Nope, your actions will define what it is I see when I look at you. Although it is obvious whether a person is black or not that is not all you are.

My general chemistry lab partner was black. Did I care? No. I was in fact happy to have him as my lab partner for 2 reasons initially.
1. He was not my previous lab partner (she was to reckless for me)
2. He was pleasant. Jovial maybe even.

He was not Black John, he was Just John. Not all people immediately assume that you are a certain way because you are black, white, asian, latino, etc. In fact his parents actually make a lot more than mine do.

But I digress. If there is an opportunity for you to take, then by all means take it. I would if I were in your shoes. Though if you already have good grades, scored well on tests, and are involved you probably don't need the extra help anyway.

You will learn that some people don't have preconcieved notions, when you go to college you will meet lots of them. Anyways back to physics.

 

[Static]

Originally posted by OniSyphon
Yeah what the hell are black people thinking staying under slavery for some 250 odd years to the point that they were believed to be less than human. Then they think they can get across by being under Jim Crow laws and Grandfather clauses for a couple of more years the sneaky bastard. Then "pretending" they were suffering under segregation and discrimination until the late 60's and early 70's, where they still were treated as less than white people, when they obviously liked it. And on top of that they act like the police allowing drugs to be pushed into their neighborhoods and the hole that was dug for them that they continue to climb out of too this day economy wise ( I mean comon right after slavery we all know they jumped right up the scale to the level that white people were able to be at financially during the time they were slaves) are really not their faults. Those lazy, slacking minorities like to also bring up those "rare" occurences when we still see police brutality and racists statements made by senators, that apparently people in the South respect greatly, that they sat actually affect them. I mean seriously white people have to deal with being pulled over by the cops for being black and driving a nice car or being outside late at night ALL THE TIME!

Let's not mention though that affirmative action affects minorities of all types and women. Let's just keep giving it to these blacks! And while we're at it lets start dissing welfare...wait more white people then black people are on that? Nevermind let's stick to this affirmative action thing.

*Hops over his puddle of sarcasm*

alright... the blacks had it hard from like 1700's-1970's

i never said they didnt but now that they are free they resort to drugs and crime. People stereotype them because thats what they do(most of them do... maybe over the 65% range of black americans) its not my fault i didnt put the guns in their hands and the black into jail...


and yes affirmative action sucks

 

[x[311]x]

Affirmative action isn't just for blacks. Though.... it was implemented for them more or less.... But it deals with other races too. I'm Cherokee Indian, and when it came to going to school, i could have gotten quite a bit of money for school, but i chose to go to the Marines... I also had full rides to a few Div I schools for soccer, but i chose to goto the marines. If i had chose college however, i could have gotten a full ride from the gov't, because before the civil war they made my people walk from Florida to Oklahoma. Now I qualify for things like that...... And i find it STUPID! I think people use affirmative action as a crutch, just like the people who show up at the welfare line every week. They use such things as crutches to get by in life w/o doing anything. Even though i could qualify for things that affirmative action gives i choose not to because i would rather do things by myself... It makes me a stronger person. Which means compared to the person who was like... Gee, i'm Black or Indian, i think i'll take money from the gov't because they wronged my people 100+ years ago, i'll make the money i need for school the right way, IE work, or loans, or trying hard enough to get scholarships that i can be like.. Thats right i did it, with out anyones help.

 

[OniSyphon]

Originally posted by Gedrin
So a white kid born in a ghetto in Chicago has the same chances that a white kid born into an upper class family that places him/her in all the best prep schools to get into a good college? Hmm intersting. Class structure couldn't be important at all. Nope every white person on earth is born filthy rich, and all minorities are born in varying degrees of poverty.

As far as opression what about Russians during the Mc Carthy era. I would call being blacklisted everywhere opression. I would also call Russians white. In fact when a new wave of immigrants would come into the country they would be viewed as a threat. Someone new to take their jobs. So the Irish were opressed too. In fact all ethnic groups were opressed to one degree or another here in the United States.

Historically the Jews were enslaved in ancient egypt too if memory serves correct. So even though they were not recently enslaved they have been in the past. They still have to put up with hate crimes too.

Also lets not forget indentured servitude. A system that could be fairly easily manipulated to keep a person as a slave almost indefinately.

What it comes down to is giving an equal opportunity, and not tipping the scales either way. No organization has done this, and none will for a long time, maybe never.

-Did I see they all started the same? No. I said that they all had a relatively equal chance to reach the same plateau in life. That's kinda hard to do if someone won't let you enter the same public building as them now isn't?

-Uh, what does this have to do with them not having an equal chance to move upward in society?

-Do you just want to list historical events of slavery or something? I'm sorry to see how that is relevant to the current conversation.

-The indentured servant system ended prior to the 19th century and yes those people, once they paid off their necessary amount of labor, were "free" but again these people aren't slaves. If someone killed one of them they had the same rights as any other member of society to have justice service. Slavery is a complete different system.

-Huh? Do you know what equal opportunity means?

Originally posted by Static
i never said they didnt but now that they are free they resort to drugs and crime. People stereotype them because thats what they do(most of them do... maybe over the 65% range of black americans) its not my fault i didnt put the guns in their hands and the black into jail...

Where did you get that figure?

Do you watch alot of MTV and hip-hop videos or something? Or have you actually gone to many neighborhoods that have a high black population?

Please don't say "people stereotype them because that's what they do". That's like saying people stereotype arabic ethnicities as terrorist because that's what a select group do or people stereotype asians as owners of dry cleaning business because that's what some may do. Stereotypes are what they are, broad generalizations of a group of people according to some mental ideal that is often false. I can think of atleast 3 white supremacists groups that have been involved in terrorism and many ethnicities ranging from italian to dominican that run dry cleaning businesses.

 

[Gedrin]

I said that they all had a relatively equal chance to reach the same plateau in life. That's kinda hard to do if someone won't let you enter the same public building as them now isn't?

Relative to what? There is a large disparity between poor and rich in the ability to provide quality equcation. If a person recieves substandard education they will be less likely to pass entrance exams, and score well on the ACT/SAT. In reality a white poor guy and a black poor guy are at about the same footing. Although because of minority only schlarships this statement is errant in that a minority will likely have a better chance.

Where I live any public building I can enter a black guy can too. Or are we still focusing on the past pretending that it is the present?

-Do you just want to list historical events of slavery or something? I'm sorry to see how that is relevant to the current conversation.

Then maybe you half understand my argument. 139 years ago slavery was abolished. Although African american have suffered discrimination so have almost all if not all of the ethnic groups of our country. If we try to make up for past discrimination by discrimination in the present that causes problems.

http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/constitution_amendments_11-27.html

-Huh? Do you know what equal opportunity means?

A better question is do you? If you think that giving an "equal opportunity" is giving one group more opportunities than another based on revenge on people that may or may not be those who did the initial ofending acts then I guess not. However if the goal of "equal opportunity" is to give equal opportunities then I have a fairly good grasp on the concept. Maybe you're right, the word may be a misnomer.