US Presidential Election 08, debate thread

Uncle_Vanya

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Well Arcane Sanctuary was never lively but now its kinda dead. In any case I think to change things around a bit we should get a sound political debate going on the topic of the upcoming November election. With my detached, third party perspective (which basically comes down to "Must crash capitalism!") I truly don't know there to stand here. I don't like McCain and I don't particularly like Obama, the whole Messiah thing is a bit overrated in my opinion McCain atleast doesn't try to hide that he is a politician like all others and will run to his lobbyists one minute into his term if he is elected. So obviously there are big issues here, war in Iraq, economy, oil prices Im sure many of you are divided amongst the party lines so if you could please state what in your opinion is your candidate's position on these issues and why you think that your candidates are perfect for the job; we can probably get an interesting debate going if we manage to keep things calm and mature.
 

Tipsy

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Iraq: McCain wants to stay in Iraq as long as it takes because a democratic Iraq will supposedly make us so much safer. Fails on that front because it takes generations and generations of changes in political culture for anything to come close to what the west views as democracy to come forth. Second, we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars per day (last I checked it was 500, though that was a conservative estimate). Obviously, I disagree with him there. Obama has for a very long time stated he wanted to pull out 1 or 2 battalions from Iraq every month until we were out. Then conditions in Iraq got better so shifted his policy to 1 or 2 battalions a month with pauses as suggested by the generals in charge of Iraq (no mention of how long a 'pause' would be; can you say "until the job is done"?). Not to mention the idea of 'redeploying' around the region and keep spending money that should be spent at home in the Middle East. Want out of Iraq? Obama and McCain are not on your side, they're both same old status quo politicians.


Economy: Most important part of this is to get government spending under control, both discretionary and entitlements. From what I've seen McCain's made no radical proposal that is needed to deal with either, he just wants to cut out the pork, something that is insignificant in the big picture. Obama wants to raise taxes on people who make over 250k (from 39% of income up to 50% when including all levels of tax and the payroll tax). He's just proposing economic measures that have already failed us once when we had marginal tax rates similar to this, and he wants to bring it back. I'm trying not to go too long, so I'll just summarize that we have one candidate who is an idiot on the economy, McCain, and another whose trying to bring big government programs worthy of socialism back into style, Obama.


Energy/Oil: Obama wants to not drill and to manage the economy through the government. I simply can't put the environment over the needs of people to get to work and put food on their table (as transportation costs go up, so do the costs of basic goods necessary for survival). And managing the economy? Last time we tried that with energy we got ethanol, an out of control, inefficient, subsidized form of energy. McCain's big on expanding oil and gas to supposedly solve energy problems here and through offering ineffective incentives to develop alternatives as well as enforcing gas mileage and other such regulations that car manufactures are going above and beyond already because of market forces. Neither seems to realize the government needs to get out of the way.

Yeah, it's hard to pick between them because I don't see too much of a difference between them - they're both status quo candidates.

Well Arcane Sanctuary was never lively but now its kinda dead.
I'm just glad you broke my streak of making the last 7 threads in here.
 

Uncle_Vanya

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Iraq: McCain wants to stay in Iraq as long as it takes because a democratic Iraq will supposedly make us so much safer. Fails on that front because it takes generations and generations of changes in political culture for anything to come close to what the west views as democracy to come forth. Second, we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars per day (last I checked it was 500, though that was a conservative estimate). Obviously, I disagree with him there. Obama has for a very long time stated he wanted to pull out 1 or 2 battalions from Iraq every month until we were out. Then conditions in Iraq got better so shifted his policy to 1 or 2 battalions a month with pauses as suggested by the generals in charge of Iraq (no mention of how long a 'pause' would be; can you say "until the job is done"?). Not to mention the idea of 'redeploying' around the region and keep spending money that should be spent at home in the Middle East. Want out of Iraq? Obama and McCain are not on your side, they're both same old status quo politicians.
I kind of agree, neither politician seems to be bound on doing what the nation seems to want as far as Iraq is concerned, but then again I don't think you can say that the nation really knows what it wants to do. The problem with Iraq is that right now US is paying off a lot of the local warlords to fight AQI and other groups that are still anti-US, if US leaves and the paychecks stop coming those warlords will start cutting each other's heads off again to regain control of the country. I highly doubt that the Iraqie military can handle a return of escalated violence, their performance at Basra was substandard with many Iraqie soldiers deserting once the fighting started. You also have to take into account the appeal of many religious crazies to the Iraqie public. In addition Syria will most certainly start exporting their own religious crazies again to Iraq if US leaves. Basically there is no simple solution to this and the outcome will most likely end up with US loosing its face. But McCain seems to be more arrogant in his ignorant perspective on what is going on in Iraq although Obama is yet to show any substance on the issue either, at least Obama voted against the war to begin with though.


Economy: Most important part of this is to get government spending under control, both discretionary and entitlements. From what I've seen McCain's made no radical proposal that is needed to deal with either, he just wants to cut out the pork, something that is insignificant in the big picture. Obama wants to raise taxes on people who make over 250k (from 39% of income up to 50% when including all levels of tax and the payroll tax). He's just proposing economic measures that have already failed us once when we had marginal tax rates similar to this, and he wants to bring it back. I'm trying not to go too long, so I'll just summarize that we have one candidate who is an idiot on the economy, McCain, and another whose trying to bring big government programs worthy of socialism back into style, Obama.
I heard some things about taxes that suggests that in capitalist economies lowering taxes is actually a good thing because people have more money to contribute to the economy through investment, which in turn creates more jobs, which in turn creates more tax payers. Now Im not sure of how accurate this perspective is, perhaps you can enlighten me on the issue. As for the candidates, once again I agree, neither one has anything solid to add.


Energy/Oil: Obama wants to not drill and to manage the economy through the government. I simply can't put the environment over the needs of people to get to work and put food on their table (as transportation costs go up, so do the costs of basic goods necessary for survival). And managing the economy? Last time we tried that with energy we got ethanol, an out of control, inefficient, subsidized form of energy. McCain's big on expanding oil and gas to supposedly solve energy problems here and through offering ineffective incentives to develop alternatives as well as enforcing gas mileage and other such regulations that car manufactures are going above and beyond already because of market forces. Neither seems to realize the government needs to get out of the way.

Yeah, it's hard to pick between them because I don't see too much of a difference between them - they're both status quo candidates.
There is a way of making ethanol out of barley that could be a relatively quick renewable solution to the energy crisis. McCain did say something about building 45 new nuclear power plants in US, I don't remember Obama saying anything about how is actually going to solve the issue with harm to environment or without.


I'm just glad you broke my streak of making the last 7 threads in here.
Lets add overall foreign policy to the table, in relation to Iran, Russia, North Korea, etc. The broader the topic the more of a chance we have to get more people on board. So what would be your perspective on the two candidates in relation to their overall foreign policy agendas?
 

Tipsy

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Uncle_Vanya said:
I kind of agree, neither politician seems to be bound on doing what the nation seems to want as far as Iraq is concerned, but then again I don't think you can say that the nation really knows what it wants to do. The problem with Iraq is that right now US is paying off a lot of the local warlords to fight AQI and other groups that are still anti-US, if US leaves and the paychecks stop coming those warlords will start cutting each other's heads off again to regain control of the country. I highly doubt that the Iraqie military can handle a return of escalated violence, their performance at Basra was substandard with many Iraqie soldiers deserting once the fighting started. You also have to take into account the appeal of many religious crazies to the Iraqie public. In addition Syria will most certainly start exporting their own religious crazies again to Iraq if US leaves. Basically there is no simple solution to this and the outcome will most likely end up with US loosing its face. But McCain seems to be more arrogant in his ignorant perspective on what is going on in Iraq although Obama is yet to show any substance on the issue either, at least Obama voted against the war to begin with though.
I think we come from two different perspectives on this. You're looking at this in terms of leaving the Middle East with the best possible result while I'm looking at trying to save the United States economy from our massive deficit spending funded by inflating the dollar. In leaving the Middle East the best possible, there is no simple solution; for saving spending in the Middle East there is. Also, Obama wasn't in Congress when the vote to authorize military force against Iraq was issued, he was still in the Illinois State Senate.

Uncle_Vanya said:
I heard some things about taxes that suggests that in capitalist economies lowering taxes is actually a good thing because people have more money to contribute to the economy through investment, which in turn creates more jobs, which in turn creates more tax payers. Now Im not sure of how accurate this perspective is, perhaps you can enlighten me on the issue. As for the candidates, once again I agree, neither one has anything solid to add.
Tax cuts/raises in and of themselves do nothing, economically speaking. The idea is to shift aggregate demand (AD) along aggregate supply (AS) because AS is vertical and represents potential GDP. AD is defined by Consumption + Investment + Government Spending + Net Exports. By raising taxes you lower consumption and investment, but all of that is just shifted over to government spending. What taxes do is decides who gets to pick what money is spent on - whether the individual is allowed to maximize his or her utility or whether the government can decide based largely on the work of special interest groups. Generally speaking, the less the government has control over the money spent in the economy the more efficient the economy is, however that is a long term plan that seeks to move potential GDP through the improvement of technology and so forth. To throw my opinion into all that theory, I'm generally for any tax cut for any reason because the more money available for individuals to spend, the more freedom a society has (as it also is another check on government power), the more individuals are able to maximize their utility.

Economically speaking, what is important is the marginal tax rate. A high marginal tax rate provides a disincentive to work. For example, countries moving towards a flat tax have had massive success (Estonia is a good example). Even Russia is moving towards one. Obama is trying to raise the marginal tax rate by making our system even more progressively based while McCain is lowering the marginal tax rate.

Uncle_Vanya said:
There is a way of making ethanol out of barley that could be a relatively quick renewable solution to the energy crisis. McCain did say something about building 45 new nuclear power plants in US, I don't remember Obama saying anything about how is actually going to solve the issue with harm to environment or without.
Obama's plan is basically 'you're screwed until alternatives are developed', but we'll provide incentives to develop them, though the price of oil where it is is a much bigger incentive than probably anything government could provide.

Uncle_Vanya said:
Lets add overall foreign policy to the table, in relation to Iran, Russia, North Korea, etc. The broader the topic the more of a chance we have to get more people on board. So what would be your perspective on the two candidates in relation to their overall foreign policy agendas?
Though both are trying to portray each other as having a bad policy, there really isn't too broad of a difference. They both state they want to rely much more on diplomacy, in contrast to Bush, though Obama tries to paint McCain as Bush's third term and McCain tries to paint Obama as pandering to our allies. Though in my opinion McCain is more hawkish, I don't think he is so much so that it would make much of a difference. Like with Iran, Obama wants to meet with their leaders unconditionally and McCain wants to have diplomats sent and they make this a massive policy dispute. That tells you how close their positions really are. Though Obama did talk about wanting to get more involved in the UN, especially in funding, something I disagree with very much. Though McCain also has his faults, such as the missile shield being built in Europe, a terrible waste of money (and it also pisses off Russia).

To emphasize, their major differences tend to be in the details, not the actual policy.
 

Uncle_Vanya

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I think we come from two different perspectives on this. You're looking at this in terms of leaving the Middle East with the best possible result while I'm looking at trying to save the United States economy from our massive deficit spending funded by inflating the dollar. In leaving the Middle East the best possible, there is no simple solution; for saving spending in the Middle East there is. Also, Obama wasn't in Congress when the vote to authorize military force against Iraq was issued, he was still in the Illinois State Senate.
The thing is that if you leave Middle East as it is now (and I doubt that then you actually leave many things will change) you will essentially create a terrorist spawning ground that wasn't there prior to 2003 and with it no longer being checked by your military presence **** will hit the fan and that is going to be a big security risk to you and your Israeli allies. But yeah, you're right, you will most likely not solve anything even if you throw more mountains of money at the problem and your economy needs rescuing. But the question is are your politicians prepared to pull out knowing full well there it will put them in the history books, Bush is responsible for starting this mess, but they will be in office then '**** hits the fan' and it will be hard for them to come out looking clean.


Tax cuts/raises in and of themselves do nothing, economically speaking. The idea is to shift aggregate demand (AD) along aggregate supply (AS) because AS is vertical and represents potential GDP. AD is defined by Consumption + Investment + Government Spending + Net Exports. By raising taxes you lower consumption and investment, but all of that is just shifted over to government spending. What taxes do is decides who gets to pick what money is spent on - whether the individual is allowed to maximize his or her utility or whether the government can decide based largely on the work of special interest groups. Generally speaking, the less the government has control over the money spent in the economy the more efficient the economy is, however that is a long term plan that seeks to move potential GDP through the improvement of technology and so forth. To throw my opinion into all that theory, I'm generally for any tax cut for any reason because the more money available for individuals to spend, the more freedom a society has (as it also is another check on government power), the more individuals are able to maximize their utility.
Couldn't agree more, I would love to keep more of my money in my pockets all politics aside. Are you one of those people that wants to close down the IRS and switch to the Gold Standard? Im not against them Im just a bit uneducated on that particular issue and would appreciate input.

Economically speaking, what is important is the marginal tax rate. A high marginal tax rate provides a disincentive to work. For example, countries moving towards a flat tax have had massive success (Estonia is a good example). Even Russia is moving towards one. Obama is trying to raise the marginal tax rate by making our system even more progressively based while McCain is lowering the marginal tax rate.
I believe Russia has had a flat tax rate for a while now, lowest of all developed countries is what they advertised it us back in the late 90s then Yabloko party was pushing the bill through Duma. I think its 13 or 16% right now. So basically Obama is all for a welfare state?


Obama's plan is basically 'you're screwed until alternatives are developed', but we'll provide incentives to develop them, though the price of oil where it is is a much bigger incentive than probably anything government could provide.
Hmm, the other thing is that even if you let the oil companies drill oil there they won't to that won't have any effect on oil production for another 5 years and I heard some experts say that then it does have effect prices will fall only by 21 cents per gallon.

Though both are trying to portray each other as having a bad policy, there really isn't too broad of a difference. They both state they want to rely much more on diplomacy, in contrast to Bush, though Obama tries to paint McCain as Bush's third term and McCain tries to paint Obama as pandering to our allies. Though in my opinion McCain is more hawkish, I don't think he is so much so that it would make much of a difference. Like with Iran, Obama wants to meet with their leaders unconditionally and McCain wants to have diplomats sent and they make this a massive policy dispute. That tells you how close their positions really are. Though Obama did talk about wanting to get more involved in the UN, especially in funding, something I disagree with very much. Though McCain also has his faults, such as the missile shield being built in Europe, a terrible waste of money (and it also pisses off Russia).

To emphasize, their major differences tend to be in the details, not the actual policy.
McCain also wants to kick Russia out of G8 thats one big personal issue I have with him. Regardless, as we can see with NK diplomacy actually works so it would be nice to have someone with a diplomatic mindset in the White House.
 

Tipsy

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The thing is that if you leave Middle East as it is now (and I doubt that then you actually leave many things will change) you will essentially create a terrorist spawning ground that wasn't there prior to 2003 and with it no longer being checked by your military presence **** will hit the fan and that is going to be a big security risk to you and your Israeli allies. But yeah, you're right, you will most likely not solve anything even if you throw more mountains of money at the problem and your economy needs rescuing. But the question is are your politicians prepared to pull out knowing full well there it will put them in the history books, Bush is responsible for starting this mess, but they will be in office then '**** hits the fan' and it will be hard for them to come out looking clean.
I do agree that it would talk a very principled person to just pull out of Iraq, a quality that I see in neither McCain nor Obama. However, though I don't disagree that there won't be terrorists in Iraq, I don't believe Al Queda would be able to thrive there. The Iraqi Government, the various militias (aka terrorists), and the Iraqi population don't want Al Queda in Iraq. There may be instability, but nothing that is a real threat to the United States will thrive. I can see merit in the argument of it hurting Israel, but I don't think Israel should be on our welfare rolls. They're a sovereign nation, a very strong one too, and have shown they can protect themselves.

Uncle_Vanya said:
Couldn't agree more, I would love to keep more of my money in my pockets all politics aside. Are you one of those people that wants to close down the IRS and switch to the Gold Standard? Im not against them Im just a bit uneducated on that particular issue and would appreciate input.
Gold standard is more in the Austrian schools of economics (think Ron Paul), though I'm more of a fan of neoclassical economics. I'm more of a fan of standard growth rate of currency per year (adds efficiency to the market by adding predictability). And you're thinking of the Federal Reserve System, not the IRS, the ones that have the power to buy/sell bonds (which changes the interest rate), print money, etc. I do want to close them as well and replace it with the standard growth model.

Uncle_Vanya said:
I believe Russia has had a flat tax rate for a while now, lowest of all developed countries is what they advertised it us back in the late 90s then Yabloko party was pushing the bill through Duma. I think its 13 or 16% right now. So basically Obama is all for a welfare state?
If by welfare state you mean maintaining all the welfare programs we have now, then yes. Right now these programs simply can't be afforded in the long term and Obama wants to fix this by raising the tax rate for the 'rich' (the 39% being paid now to 51%). Though every study I've read has said that it won't bring in enough money to make the programs fiscally solid. And props to Russia for having a flat tax.


Uncle_Vanya said:
Hmm, the other thing is that even if you let the oil companies drill oil there they won't to that won't have any effect on oil production for another 5 years and I heard some experts say that then it does have effect prices will fall only by 21 cents per gallon.
From what I've read, depending on where they drill, it will take from 1-10 years. For example, doing it near the part of the Golf Coast can be done in about a year since the infrastructure already exists there, though other places where you have to start from scratch will take much longer. But that's not all that important, what opening areas up to being drilled will do is provide stability for the futures market. In other words, it will stop the speculation pushing up prices. That will provide a significant lowering of oil prices.

Uncle_Vanya said:
McCain also wants to kick Russia out of G8 thats one big personal issue I have with him. Regardless, as we can see with NK diplomacy actually works so it would be nice to have someone with a diplomatic mindset in the White House.
I honestly hadn't heard about removing Russia from the G8; I have no idea why he would want to do that.
 

pastelGIRL

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through out history, there have been three basic types of people. Moral people, those who never knowingly do wrong, this is the beginnings of wisdom for they have an awareness of accountability. Then there are the immoral, those who do wrong if they think no one sees or that they will not get caught. They will step accross the line when it serves them. Finally, there are ammoral people. These live accross the line, for them there is no right or wrong, just whatever they desire. With them accountability is for fools and they have no wisdom. I see McCain as basically immoral. Obama is completely ammoral and as such it would be appropriate for people to fear his utter ruthlessness. He is collecting vote; what does that say about this society?if we don't change our entitlement thinging. One of the most immportant responsibilities our next pesident will face is picking supreme court judges. The direction of our country depends on it.. I trust McCain with that decision and for that reason, I will vote for him.saw their TV ads in pollClash
 

GAMEMASTERCHAN

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I believe that who ever we vote for, we will be voteing for the lesser of two evils. Neither of there plans seem that great. My only question is which one is willing to do what it takes to get our country out of the mess its in now. We can look at the political climate of Iraq after we pull out, or the threat that will pose to the Isralies, but when it comes down to it we as a nation are going to have to put issues abroad on hold until we figure out what to do to fix the home front. And mindlessly punching holes in the ground for oil in my opinion is a bad idea, instead for going back and relying on this dirty fuel we need to set our eyes on the future and begging to intergrate more and more alternitive fuels that are clean. There are plenty of them out there, the problem is everyone trys to find one the will work for everybody, but I believe that it will be a combination of all these alternitives to secure our future energy needs.
 

Emperor Pan I

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Obama should be voted for simply because he isn't McCain. And that my dear friend is why Democracy in the United states fails. Epic fail.
 

pastelGIRL

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These candidates give us no choice. They are both wrong for America! Our vote will be against the other one, not a vote for a candidate. Obama wants to tax and spend and McCain wants to borrow money, raise our national debt and put it on our future generations to pay it back. Obama is the most liberal politician in the senate and has no experience on Foreign Policy. McCain,s Foreign Policy is from The Vietnam War. He is too old and believes we can win the war in Iraq. God help us. The media wanted Obama to run and the peoples' choice was negated. There are no easy decisions. As a nation running scared we are going to allow drilling in Alaska. God Forbid!. We have to sacrifice now in spending, tighten our belts, hunker down, get serious. Our legacy to our future generations look mighty grim, if we don't change our entitlement thinging. One of the most immportant responsibilities our next pesident will face is picking supreme court judges. The direction of our country depends on it..
 

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As somebody who LOATHES the republican party after the last 8 yrs of their suckiness I am voting for Obama. Not because he's black, but because he didn't support the war in Iraq.
 

x42bn6

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One day, the world may wake up and discover that due to unfortunate circumstances, Sarah Palin is now the President of the United States.*
 

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