Science and Knowledge

Iliaran

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(note: this is somewhat of a spin-off from another thread)

Some people here at Battleforums seem to be under the impression that science IS knowledge. I, however, would argue that the belief that science is the most reliable source of knowledge somewhat stems from a misunderstanding of what knowledge and science are. Contrary to popular belief, science is 'not' the only source of knowledge we humans have out our disposal. Whatever happened to our emotions, our senses, and perhaps even our intuitive abilities? I would argue that although science IS a source of knowledge, it is no more reliable than any other source of knowledge....afterall, all sources of knowledge are inherently flawed.

To start off with, my argument will revolve around the definition of knowledge as "a true, justified belief", and science as "the investigation and explanation of phenomena". Note that nowhere in my definition of knowledge do I mention science.

Science is considered a source of knowledge because it is often used to justify our beliefs. In a certain thread here at the Arcane Sanctuary, someone got flamed pretty badly for bravely asserting that 95% of all science is bs. I'm afraid I have to agree. I laughed out loud in class while reading about aristotle's theories; aristotle (arguably the greatest scientist of his time), argued that when an object is thrown a force known as its "violent motion" acts on it, and when it runs out, "natural motion" takes over, which is why objects fall down. Half of the theories formulated by scientists say...a century ago have already been dissproved by our "modern" science. In fact, science is BASED on the continual revision, restriction, and replacement of theories. I can say with almost absolute certainty that, in a few hundred years time, half of our current scientific theories will be subject to one of the precedingly mentioned three 'Rs' of science. Though we would like to think that science is absolute, it is not. Contrary to popular belief, 'science' is NOT synonymous with 'fact' (imagine my disymay at reading the words "because it's fact. It's science", from a poster I respect no less...). Science merely offers us a handy explanation for what we'd otherwise be unable to explain...as does religion...which is why I really can't see people here at Battleforums are quick to bash anyone who would use religion as a means of justifying beliefs. Which brings me to another point, since science is NOT necessarily always right, why does it seem as though half the posters here think science takes precedence over religion? Can't science and religion co-exist? For all we know, there 'could' be a god, and He might have started the big bang.

I've also noticed that half the people here at the Arcane Sanctuary tend to reduce things to science. I won't discount the fact that everything sort of CAN be reduced to physics (example=love is essentially a product of chemicals coursing through our veins, and chemicals are essentially a certain combination of elements, which are essentially a certain combination of quarks, leptons, baryons, hadrons, whatever). However, to reduce everything to science is to ignore the fact that emotions and intuition play an important role in our quest for 'knowledge'. I'm sure most of you have fallen in love, so I'll ask you this: how did you 'know' you were in love? Suffice to say that I can safely assume that science played an insignificant role, and that emotions were the preponderant source of knowledge here. Emotions 'are' a source of knowledge, that, I believe, much of you have yet to accept. As another example, consider the realm of ethics. How do you 'know' if something is deontologically right or wrong? Do you pull out a calculator? A physics book perhaps? Or do you just 'know'?

In addition, sources of knowledge often conflict. Thats a given. (as an example, consider this: you're watching a magic show. perception, as a source of knowledge, tells you the magician disappeared. logic, as another source of knowledge, tells you its not possible)..For some strange reason, science always seems to take precedence over any other source of knowledge here at the Arcane Sanctuary. I believe that, in the interest of knowledge, people should be more open to the possibility that science may NOT be as reliable as they think.

...so how DOES one choose between conflicting sources of knowledge? Do you leave it to a coin toss? I believe that there is no single method through one decides between different sources of knowledge. Though one might be inclined towards choosing the most 'trustworthy' source of knowledge, that might not be the best choice (do i choose logic if I want to suspend my disbelief and ENJOY the magic show? or do I choose perception and let myself be fooled?). I urge each and every one of you forumers to ponder these questions. As Enrico Fermi once said, "Ignorance is not better than knowledge". Ignorance, gets us nowhere.
 

Kuzmich

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[glow=red]Very good question you asking here. I agree theories have changed and things that were considered facts were replaced by new facts that disprooved them and so on. But basic principles of science remained the same, it s like old skin is getting replaced with new one, but under it is the same muscles, and bones that remained unchanged, exept that they grew. At the time of for example Aristotle they didn't have enough accumilated knowledge to make a conclusion we would consider correct today. As more knowledge is accumulated more theories become critisized and replaced. Religion on the other hand doesn't change it doesn't progress so there will come apoint then knowledge that is provided by religion will be all gone, because science will be far ahead of it. In some areas it already happened, like what you said about biology and physics, they explain things religion doesn't. About logic and emotions and all those things, well they are also explained by science, we exist as individuals only because our brain patterns are different, and that makes us have different personalities. This is what the knowledge we accumulated in this past 10 thousand years of existance tells us, until more things are found that is the truth for human kind because that is one of the main things creating the picture of the world around us, so it must be true, at least for our generation. Hope you can understand me because i got a bit confused in my own words. [/glow]
 

Iliaran

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As more knowledge is accumulated
I think not. Knowledge has no substance. Knowledge has no form. If the universe ceased to exist, knowledge would still remain. Note that I defined knowledge as a true, justified belief. In my mind, if a belief is no longer justified (as in if say a theory is disproved), then it wasn't really knowledge in the first place, just an untrue belief.

Religion on the other hand doesn't change
Ah,..but they do! Holy texts (the Bible, the Quraan, the Torat, etc..) are continuously interpreted and re-interpreted by different scholars. Though the basis of religions don't change, the religions themselves are subject to change...but thats not really what this thread's about...its more of the possibility of 'Divine Intervetion' as a source of knowledge.

In some areas it already happened, like what you said about biology and physics, they explain things religion doesn't.
No I didnt. Religion DOES explain things like the start of the universe (well...I'm only familiar with Islam, and I know the Quraan does...I can't really support any other religions)...and what areas are you talking about?

This is what the knowledge we accumulated in this past 10 thousand years of existance tells us, until more things are found that is the truth for human kind because that is one of the main things creating the picture of the world around us, so it must be true, at least for our generation.
Sorry, but that made absolutely no sense at all...but overall, I sorta do get what you're saying
 

Sogeking

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science and religion arnt that diffrent, i agree. Science builds theories off of other theories to try and prove that they are fact

religion builds belief through faith supported by some sort of system to explain being.

and they differ
 

Kamikaze

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Originally posted by Iliaran
I think not. Knowledge has no substance. Knowledge has no form. If the universe ceased to exist, knowledge would still remain. Note that I defined knowledge as a true, justified belief. In my mind, if a belief is no longer justified (as in if say a theory is disproved), then it wasn't really knowledge in the first place, just an untrue belief.
i think you're confusing knowledge with faith.
you define knowledge as a justified belief. i have knowledge, i know that my car will start. am i justified in thinking that? i believe i am. so a month ago when for no reason my car didn't start was it an untrue belief of mine that when i put my key in the ignition and turned the key with a full tank of gas, a fully charged battery, working fuel pump, clean filters and air intake, working starter, new map sensor, working o2 sensor, carbon free throttle body and injectors, new spark plugs and correct firing order that my car would fail to start?
according to your definition my knowledge of cars is incorrect and was only an untrue belief.



Originally posted by Iliaran
Ah,..but they do! Holy texts (the Bible, the Quraan, the Torat, etc..) are continuously interpreted and re-interpreted by different scholars. Though the basis of religions don't change, the religions themselves are subject to change...but thats not really what this thread's about...its more of the possibility of 'Divine Intervetion' as a source of knowledge.
check this out

Ex.20:13, Dt.5:17
"Thou shalt not kill."

pretty self explanatory... however

Ex.32:27
"Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."
Num.15:35
"And the Lord said unto Moses, The man [who was found picking up sticks on the sabbath] shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones."
1 Sam.15:2-3
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

is this the kind of thing you base your ideas of knowledge on?


Originally posted by Iliaran
Religion DOES explain things like the start of the universe (well...I'm only familiar with Islam, and I know the Quraan does...I can't really support any other religions)...and what areas are you talking about?
the quran is just as funny, according to this heaven was created before earth

79:27-30
Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. And after that He spread the earth....

however...

2:29
He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens.
41:9-12
Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ... Then turned He to the heaven ... Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days ....

how can you consider anything written in this book to be a "true justified belief" (your definition of knowledge) when it contradicts itself so blatantly
 

Iliaran

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Kamikaze, what you speak of (the whole car thing) isnt knowledge. Consider the following analogy (its just like your car thing, but much more simple): I have a coin. I KNOW that if I flip it, the topside will show heads. I flip it. I was right. Now did I KNOW that I'd get heads and not tails? No, I didn't. My belief was unjustified. Likewise, you cannot KNOW that your car will start, there are just far too many variables involved (yes I know you listed a couple, but there are an infinite number of variables that could have prevented your car from starting), and you don't know all of them (its like the whole theory that a suffciently intelligent being that possessed absolute knowledge of the universe can predict the future, you don't have absolute knowledge of the present, so you can't really claim that you KNOW whether or not your car will start)..

Your quotes: I have no idea where they come from, so i can't really say anything...but I do see what you're trying to get at. I realize that whatever you're quoting contradicts itself (thou shalt not kill contradicts all the other lines), but killing has nothing to do with knowledge. Your quotes basically show that a certain religious text contradicts itself, but what does that have to do with my assertion that religions are continuously evolving and that 'divine intervention' MIGHT be a source of knowledge?...and I base my ideas on knowledge, or more of the 'problems' of knowledge on logic and philosophy, not religion.

how can you consider anything written in this book to be a "true justified belief"
You're getting it all wrong. Its not that the quraan presents 'true justified beliefs' (im agnostic btw), its that people USE the quraan, and other religious texts, to justify their beliefs. People USE religions to justify what they dont know. (e.g. Who created the universe? God! Why does the Earth spin around? Because God made it spin!)

Now, if you please, stop the whole religion thing, the purpose of this thread was to argue that science isn't always the most reliable source of knowledge, not that religion is (the whole religion thing in my original post was actually an after-thought)

And your quotes from the Quraan (basing this on the assumption that you've cited them in the form soora:aya(verse)), they dont exist.
Lines 27-30 from soora al Naziaat (#79) read "For that they used no to fear any account, but they treated our signs as false, and all things have we preserved on record, so taste ye the fruits of your deeds For no increase shall we grant you except in punishment. Verily for the righteous there will be a fulfillment of the heart's desires" (loose translation of the following in arabic: anahum kanoo la yarjaoon hisaban wa kathabo biaayatina kithaban wa kul shay ahsayna kitaban fathoogoo falan nazeedakam ila aathaba)

Line 29 from the second Soora (soorat Al bagara) reads: "It is He who hath created for you al things that are on earth; moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He fgave order and perfection...To the seven firmaments and of all things he hath perfect knowledge." (huwa alathy khalaga lakum ma fi alarth jameean thuma istawa ila ilsama fasawahen sabaa samawat wa howa bikul shay aaleem)

Lines 9-12 from the 49th Soora (Soora al hujrat): "If two parties among The believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond the bounds against the other then fight ye against the one that transfresses until it complies with the command of god; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for god loves those who are fair and just. The believers are but a single brotherhood so make peace and reconcilliation between your two contending brothers and fear god, that ye may receive mercy. ye who believe! let not some men among you laugh at others. It mahy be that the latter are better than the former. Nor let some women laugh at others. It may be that the latter are better than the former. nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other Nor call each other by offensive nicknames. Ill seeming is a name connoting wickidnessTo be used of one after he has believed. And those who do not disist are in sin. Ye wh believe! avoid suspicion as possible: for suspicion is a sin. And spy not on each other Nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...but fear God: for god is Oft Returning most merciful" (too long to type in arabic..)


Anyways...dont turn this thread into a discussion about religion, the topic is SCIENCE and knowlege, NOT religion and knowledge...keep it that way...(though I'd be happy to discuss religion related matters somewhere else)
 

Kamikaze

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Originally posted by Iliaran
Kamikaze, what you speak of (the whole car thing) isnt knowledge. Consider the following analogy (its just like your car thing, but much more simple): I have a coin. I KNOW that if I flip it, the topside will show heads. I flip it. I was right. Now did I KNOW that I'd get heads and not tails? No, I didn't. My belief was unjustified. Likewise, you cannot KNOW that your car will start, there are just far too many variables involved (yes I know you listed a couple, but there are an infinite number of variables that could have prevented your car from starting), and you don't know all of them (its like the whole theory that a suffciently intelligent being that possessed absolute knowledge of the universe can predict the future, you don't have absolute knowledge of the present, so you can't really claim that you KNOW whether or not your car will start)..
to have an understanding of how something works is a form of knowledge, to flip a coin and be right about the side it lands on is only guess.
 

Iliaran

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to have an understanding of how something works is a form of knowledge
Precisely. While you might understand how your car works, you cannot claim to know all the variables that may affect whether or not your car will start. So in other words, you THINK your car will start, you do not KNOW that it will start. You can only claim to 'know' something before its been proven true under certain circumstances (example: i know that if I drop a glass cup from the top of a building, it will shatter). There's a fundamental differnce between a priori and a posteriori knowledge. The knowledge you speak of (knowing stuff about your car) falls under a posteriori knowledge. The problem with a posteriori knowledge is that its usually based on inductive reasoning and percieved realities (and is thus susceptible to all the problems of knowledge associated with perception and induction). A hypothetical situation: my computer doesnt 'feel' right. I know something’s not right. Turns out that there’s a virus. Did I know it beforehand? I believe the answer depends on the validity of the premise. Moreover, the more complicated something gets, the harder it is to evaluate. While flipping a coin and dropping cups from the top of buildings are 'simple' acts, starting a car is by comparison, a much more complicated process. (note: we're still going off topic...)
 

Kamikaze

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Originally posted by Iliaran
Precisely. While you might understand how your car works, you cannot claim to know all the variables that may affect whether or not your car will start. So in other words, you THINK your car will start, you do not KNOW that it will start.


i knew it would start, there was one variable that i had not taken into account, a safety feature that if my car is put into neutral and pushed the flow of gas is cut for a few minutes.
a missing piece of information in your definition made knowledge an untrue belief... but the only missing variable was time.

as long as all the necessary criteria are met a machine has to work.
how does an unknown variable make knowledge an untrue belief?

example: you made yourself something to eat, you know you did.
when you go to get a fork i walk in and steal it without you knowing. does that make your knowledge an untrue belief?
 

Iliaran

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I think the question here is: can you really KNOW something before its proven to be true? (in my earnest opinion, I believe you'd either have to be prescient, or the knowledge in question has to be a simple, predictable cause and effect thing...or the knowledge would have to be a priori in nature (1+1 is ALWAYS true...well...unless if the laws of the universe are rewritten))

and knowledge, by virtue, HAS to be true...so that immediately invalidates some of the questions you pose...nothing can MAKE knowledge an untrue belief because an untrue belief isnt knowledge to start off with...its just a belief...and try defining necessary criteria. An infinite number of variables can affect any single thing. You cant possibly claim to know EVERYTHING (for all you know, there could be a little green cloaked alien just sitting next to your car with a plasma gun trained at your head)

the food example (which btw...I did just do...nice smoked salmon sandwich...): thats a different sort of situation entirely. I know I did because I already did. No prediction is involved. If you DID in fact start your car, you'd know that you did. But you just cant say that beforehand.

The fork example: my knowledge of WHAT an untrue belief?

(note to moderators: can you please split all this knowledge stuff from this thread into a separate one? I'd really like to pursue both this knowledge stuff and the reliability of science stuff...just not in the same thread)

Contesting your definition of "knowledge" seems like a valid debate point to me. If it's okay for now I'd like the thread to stay intact.
 

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