Melee Map Testing, Anyone?

ThingInTheCoat

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I'm not sure if this is the appropriate area to post this, as it's not a UMS map per se, but here it is.

This is my first melee map, and if anyone would like to try it out, be my guest. It's a 6 player, non-BGH allied map in the vein of Opposing City States (you have to use map settings to enable allied play, of course). Any feedback -- balancing issues, terrain placement, etc. -- would be valued like sweet, sweet candy.

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ThingInTheCoat

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After testing it myself, right off the bat I spot an imbalance: some starting positions have six mineral fields and others five. A corrected version has been uploaded in place of the original file.

And you are a good sir, Lord of Nukes.
 

Lord of Nukes

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Ok, this is what I noticed while looking at the map.

-6 minerals isn't enough. This will make strategies like a 9 pool for Zerg difficult as the timing will be screwed up. It'll also slow down a Terran considerably as SCVs already gather slower than other peons. 8 to 10 would be good for the main bases.

The two bases nearer the middle need to be altered. A floating Barracks or Engineering Bay and a Tank or two will pwn the players economy. You need to pull their resources and command building away from the edge.

-I really like the routes around the map, similar to Bifrost. However, the one bridge in the middle could become problematic. I think you should make the land outside of the bridges unbuildable. That way a Terran player can't camp their Tanks and Missile Turrets without having to think about disturbing whoever is mining at the middle expansion (assuming it's them or an ally).

-The base at 11 is a bit cheap. The resources are moer easily reachable because they aren't in an odd alignment like the other bases. The command building is one matrix square firther away than it should be, so if a Terran lifts their Command Center and moves it over they'll have an economic advantage once they make up for a late SCV.

-I would work towards giving each base a more easily defined natural expansion. I can Zerg having a lot of trouble on this map as they can't build Sunken Colonies in many chokepoints, the openings to bases are too large. Zerg will also have trouble if they lack an expansion with gas. Zerg needs gas to fight M&M Terrans early in the game. It will be impossible for a Zerg to fight against SK Terran on this map if a Terran enemy manages to secure enough gas. 3 Fac Tank will also be very bad for Zerg.

-In the bases between the two edge bases on each side, the mienrls should be curved to complement resource mining. Also, I think you should have the Vespene Geyser nearer the minerals there. If someone can make a successful drop, they deserve to be able to do more damage to peons without having to run around the base hoping reinforcements don't come in quickly. It will also make players feel a little safer not having the Geyser so easily exposed to anyone who makes it up the ramp. A Terran can fly an early Command Center to these cliff protected bases. I would put an 8 mineral patch right in the middle so it's impossible to land a Command Center without first dropping a peon there and mining the small resource chunk with it.

-10, 11, and 5 need to have a different plan to the mineral placement. To combat ranged units dropped behind the mienral lines, the defending player also needs ranged units. These units will get stumbled up in the mining peons if they misclick. This is mostly an advantage for Terran as Marine drops are inexpensive. That also makes Revear drops impossible. Reavers must be dropped in the mineral line which makes it mroe likely the Reaver will be killed before it can deal sufficient damage for the effort of dropping it there. Have paths around both sides of the minerals that units can go through. Alternatively, have one way through and have a break in the middle of the mineral line.

-The main bases are a bit big, so restructuring the terrain to accomodate some of these suggestions should result in more normal sized bases which is good.

-There are expansions on the cliffs southwest and northeast of the middle main bases respectively. I think those should be on low terrain. It will make players work a little bit more to defend it. It will also make it so a Terran player can't defend his team's half of the map with a few cliffed Tanks and Missile Turrets.

-Just south of the middle of the map is a doodad that doesn't belong between the cliff and ground. It doesn't fit there. With the current map pattern, you won't really be able to blend it in. Also, it'll cause vision problems if a unit steps near it, they'll lose sight of the cliff they're supposed to be on, and units below the cliff can see and attack there when they shouldn't be able to.

-One last thing is gas placement. It's faster to mine gas from the north and west then the east and south. Choose which of the two possibilities you want to use for the map and stick to it, otherwise you'll have some balance issues with gas. This explains the gas issue better.

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You have a good design idea. It just needs to be modified to accomodate a wider array of strategies. The resource related problems are the biggest problems but those can be dealth with with relative ease. This map is also incredibly friendly with Terran and difficult for Protoss. I can't see how a Zerg could play well on this against Terran or even a decent Protoss. Changes I suggested should alleviate these issues.

It's a good map, it just needs some polishing. There's a lot of things that need to be changed, but none of them are major.

If there's any changes I suggested that think would conflict with how you wanted the map to feel, disregard them. Make only the changes you feel comfortable with, but everything I suggested has a degree of validity. In the end, it's your map. Do whatever changes you feel would be beneficial.

If there are any suggestions you don't understand, I can take screenshots of changes, but I'd need an unprotected copy of the map. If you don't want to send me one, then I'll try to clarifiy anything you don't understand with drawings and more specific explanations. Also, I haven't spell checked so I may have made some bad typos.

It's a reasonable map, I can see some good 3v3s being played on it with a few changes.
 

ThingInTheCoat

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Wow, I wasn't expecting such in-depth criticism. Good man, Nukes. I'll tinker around with those issues when I get time. However, some of your suggestions did leave me a little confused. I've attached an unprotected version of the map below, so if you can squeeze out a few screenshots to better illustrate your points, I'd thank you with obsequity.

-The base at 11 is a bit cheap. The resources are moer easily reachable because they aren't in an odd alignment like the other bases. The command building is one matrix square firther away than it should be, so if a Terran lifts their Command Center and moves it over they'll have an economic advantage once they make up for a late SCV.
Assuming you meant the teal base, I already noticed the matrix discrepancy and corrected it. However, I'm unsure of how their positioning makes them more easily reachable . . .

-In the bases between the two edge bases on each side, the mienrls should be curved to complement resource mining. Also, I think you should have the Vespene Geyser nearer the minerals there.
The intentionally-cramped conditions of these two areas make effective resource placing difficult, and curving moreso without major revisions to the surrounding terrain and compromising the design intention. The following image is a possible solution I've devised to streamline the workforce, but in your more experienced opinion, would it a be a viable one?


-10, 11, and 5 need to have a different plan to the mineral placement. To combat ranged units dropped behind the mienral lines, the defending player also needs ranged units. These units will get stumbled up in the mining peons if they misclick. This is mostly an advantage for Terran as Marine drops are inexpensive. That also makes Revear drops impossible. Reavers must be dropped in the mineral line which makes it mroe likely the Reaver will be killed before it can deal sufficient damage for the effort of dropping it there. Have paths around both sides of the minerals that units can go through. Alternatively, have one way through and have a break in the middle of the mineral line.
Is this along your lines of thinking?


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I realize that this map is like a terran playground, and that a predominantly terran force against a largely zerg or protoss force is at a decided disadvantage, but I designed it with balanced forces in mind -- a range of terrans, protoss, and zerg on each side -- with the terrans playing a key defensive or offensive role. In UMS I could have forced this type of team design, but ultimately I left it up to the players how they wanted to arrange themselves.

Anyway, thanks for your help -- you're too nice.

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ThingInTheCoat

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Darn browser and its double-posting . . .
 

Lord of Nukes

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Assuming you meant the teal base, I already noticed the matrix discrepancy and corrected it. However, I'm unsure of how their positioning makes them more easily reachable . . .
At all the other bases, units have to move diagonally to reach the minerals. At Teal's base, the peons can go straight across and won't need to turn. This means they will reach the minerals faster, and return to the command building faster.

The intentionally-cramped conditions of these two areas make effective resource placing difficult, and curving moreso without major revisions to the surrounding terrain and compromising the design intention. The following image is a possible solution I've devised to streamline the workforce, but in your more experienced opinion, would it a be a viable one?
Ok, I understand. You're solution is good. Only problem I have with it is the one Mineral Field by itself under the Vespene Geyser. People don't want to have to pay that much attention to where they're putting their peons. I would suggest moving it up with the other three.

Oh, and StarEdit wouldn't allow me to place the lower right minerals that you had done. Perhaps I got the wrong base or you changed its set-up slightly or something. Anyways, I had to adjust it a little more for StarEdit to allow me to place everything.



Is this along your lines of thinking?
No. :p But it works fine and accomplishes the task. You have a split of 4 mienrals on each side which is good as it won't disrupt worker splitting. My only concern is that the peons on the right side are more vulnerable to attacks.

This is more what I meant. You can see that reaver can be dropped behind here and Scrabas have a chance to get through. Blue can also get his units through.



However, it may not be enough of an opening for defense. You could try the following. Keep in mind that both of these are very rough ideas. If you choose to us on of them, you'd have to work on them to so their is still sufficient building room and it still gives the feel for the kind of map you want. This is just to convey the ideas. In this next one, I immediately notice that it will be much more difficult now for Blue to defend his main base if an enemy gets up the ramp because they can pull back firther if they have Tanks.

I should have saved it as .png, sorry if the text is unclear. I also spelt Scarabs incorrectly. T_T



If you want to keep with the split minerals like your posted a screnshot of, I would move the Geyser a little closer.

I realize that this map is like a terran playground, and that a predominantly terran force against a largely zerg or protoss force is at a decided disadvantage, but I designed it with balanced forces in mind -- a range of terrans, protoss, and zerg on each side -- with the terrans playing a key defensive or offensive role. In UMS I could have forced this type of team design, but ultimately I left it up to the players how they wanted to arrange themselves.
I understand. That should work pretty well. There aren't any cliffs in the middle of the map and the expos on the side are on the high ground which will make it more possible for Zerg and protoss to breach a terran defense, but Terrans will certainly play a very defensive role on this map.

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I hope that helps clear some stuff up. Do whatever you want with the map. I really like the layout of the map, it's unique and I forsee it will be fun to play on. Good luck with your mapping.
 

ThingInTheCoat

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Thank you kindly, wise Nukes. You've been a tremendous help, and are deserving of some sort of pie-type reward.
 

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