Fundies propose hormone patch to eliminate homosexuality

B~E

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Pity the poor fetus. There's a lot coming its way. And now there's talk on a conservative evangelical blog of a hypothetical hormone patch that an expectant mother might wear to eradicate her fetus's natural gayness.

The patch, the biological determinism: It's all conjecture, for now. But it hit like a theological IED when it turned up earlier this month on the blog of the Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., one of the leading voices of the 16 million-strong Southern Baptist Convention. He blogged on these issues under the appropriately provocative headline: "Is Your Baby Gay? What if You Could Know? What if You Could Do Something About It?" In his postings, he raises the possibility of a biological basis for homosexuality and prods his flock to think about how it should respond.

At a time when homosexuality in the military has reemerged as a flash point, causing presidential candidates to deflect and dance gingerly around the topic, Mohler has taken up the debate about the origins of homosexuality in a way he ad mits has roiled many in the Christian right.


For seeming to contradict a basic tenet of anti-gay thinking -- that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not a state of nature -- Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, was inundated with e-mails from readers who castigated him, he said on his blog Friday.

And for expressing his approval of a hypothetical prenatal intervention to change a baby's sexual orientation, he was verbally attacked by gay-rights advocates. Some of them likened him to the Nazi doctor Josef Mengele for seeming to advocate the manipulation of nature to "basically wipe out gay people," said Wayne R. Besen, founder of Truth Wins Out, a group that fights efforts to convert gays to heterosexuality.

To quiet the storm, Mohler's blog on Friday attempted to more fully explain his thinking, sparked by an article by Tyler Gray, entitled "Is Your Baby Gay?," in the March issue of Radar magazine.

"My purpose in writing my previous article was, in the main, to draw attention to a very real threat to human dignity that lurks as a possibility on our horizon, a possibility explicitly described in the Radar magazine article," Mohler wrote. "This is the possibility that, if a biological marker (real or not) is ever claimed to mark homosexuality in prenatal testing, widespread abortion of such babies might well follow," a prospect he denounced.

In an interview on Friday, Mohler said that Christian couples "should be open" to the prospect of changing the course of nature -- if a biological marker for homosexuality were to be found. He would not support gene therapy but might back other treatments, such as a hormonal patch.

"I think any Christian couple would want their child to be whole and healthy," he said. "Knowing that that child is going to be a sinner, we would not want to make their personal challenges more difficult if they could be less difficult."

On his blog, he said "Christians must be very careful not to claim that science can never prove a biological basis for sexual orientation. . . . The general trend of the research points to at least some biological factors behind sexual attraction, gender identity and sexual orientation."

Indeed, some scientific research suggests homosexuality may stem from biological influences including genetics and hormones. A 2006 study published in Proceedings of the National Academies of Science concluded that homosexuality in some men may be a result of an immune response in a mother's womb if she has previously given birth to one or more boys. Earlier studies revealed a genetic variation that might influence homosexuality.

On his blog, Mohler wrote that the search for a biological cause of the "disorder" could also lead to a "cure." In the interview, however, he distanced himself from the "therapeutic language of a 'cure' " and spoke instead of "salvation through Christ." Homosexual behavior is sinful, he said, whether based in nature or nurture.

The Rev. Rob Schenck, a pastor and member of the Evangelical Church Alliance, which he said is probably the most conservative of the evangelical groups, applauded Mohler for launching a dialogue.

But, he warned, "this is such a delicate and risky conversation to have for a number or reasons . . . We're going to have to be extremely prayerful and careful about making any decision to tinker with a child's genetic or biochemical construction. We may be awfully close to violating the sanctity of that child's life and their integrity as a person."

Mohler has "touched the third rail of the radical religious right's view of homosexuality," said the Rev. Bob Edgar, executive secretary of the National Council of Churches, which represents 35 denominations and 45 million congregants.

"What he said lends credence to the fact that it's God's creation. His brothers in faith would be more surprised than liberals with his comments." Ironically, Mohler's musings on these subjects were based on an article in an irreverent pop culture magazine. Gray, the article's author, said he was "not real happy" with the way Mohler used his writings.

"You can't just pick the parts that you like and say, 'I'm going to use this to say that I would be okay with a treatment that would eradicate homosexuality,' " said Gray, whose article raised the prospect for hypocrisy among conservatives and liberals faced with choices about the sexuality of their unborn children.

Mohler's missive has had a "chilling and frightening effect" on the homosexual community, said Harry Knox, director of the religion and faith program at the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights advocacy group. "My word for [Christian conservatives] is they should be more focused on repentance for the sins they have committed against homosexuals than on manipulating the next generation of the unborn."

Besen said Mohler's musing are akin to calling for a "final solution" for gays.

"It's the first time I've ever used such a term, and having a family background that included the Holocaust I don't take that lightly," said Besen, author of "Anything but Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth."

"However . . . if you follow what he said there would be no gay people in the future."

Homosexuality is a "huge challenge" to Christianity, said Mohler, referring, in part, to the Rev. Ted Haggard, former president of the National Association of Evangelicals, who was forced to step down last November because of a gay sex scandal. And the Rev. Lonnie Latham, a member of the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, was embroiled in a gay sex scandal but was found not guilty of having solicited sex from another man.

"In our churches and in our families there are people struggling with homosexuality and for a long time this was kind of hidden," Mohler said in the interview. "It is no longer hidden, and the fact is we've got to be coming up with genuinely Christian responses to Christians who are in this struggle."

Asked if he perhaps was moving ahead of the science on homosexuality's origins, Mohler said, "I don't think it's that far off. The battle for human dignity is already here."

Links:

Mohler's blog - http://www.albertmohler.com
Truth Wins Out - http://www.truthwinsout.org
"Is Your Baby Gay?" -
http://www.radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2007/03/is_your_baby_gay_1.php

This raise a few questions....

From a religious point of view, does Man have the right or even the privilege of tampering with something eternally-touted as being divinely created? A passage in the Bible, I forget which, has G0d saying he knew the person while he was still in the womb. To me that's very clear that God is the developer and the mother just the carrier if you will.

How can we be supportive of genetic engineering humans and then turn around and oppose this in the same time?

Should parents seven be allowed to mess around with the genetics of their children?

If your kid is "diagnosed" with homosexuality, would you do something about it?

And in my opinion, homosexuality being natural doesn't invalidate the religious argument that its a question of freewill, like the article suggested. The urge to sin may be genetic in origine, but to give in to it remain a question of free choice, thus it remain "punishable" by God.

Removing predisposition to homosexual behaviors before birth, isn't this close to genocide, in the litteral sense of the term (to kill the gene)?
 

Arxces

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From a religious point of view, does Man have the right or even the privilege of tampering with something eternally-touted as being divinely created? A passage in the Bible, I forget which, has G0d saying he knew the person while he was still in the womb. To me that's very clear that God is the developer and the mother just the carrier if you will.

How can we be supportive of genetic engineering humans and then turn around and oppose this in the same time?

Should parents seven be allowed to mess around with the genetics of their children?

If your kid is "diagnosed" with homosexuality, would you do something about it?

And in my opinion, homosexuality being natural doesn't invalidate the religious argument that its a question of freewill, like the article suggested. The urge to sin may be genetic in origine, but to give in to it remain a question of free choice, thus it remain "punishable" by God.

Removing predisposition to homosexual behaviors before birth, isn't this close to genocide, in the litteral sense of the term (to kill the gene)?
First of all, I'd like to clarify my position on homosexuality. As a practicing Muslim, I am very much opposed to it. That being said, I do not harbour hatred nor prejudices to homosexuals. Regardless of the nature-nurture debate, I am inclined to agree that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice (though sexual orientation may not). It makes sense: if even heterosexuals can abstain, then homosexuals who wish to follow their religious teachings should struggle to abstain. I understand that it may be difficult, and that, as an abstainist (that is until marriage) I will probably never understand how homosexuals feel about people of their own sex. Nevertheless, it IS possible to stop practicing one's homosexual nature, merely by abstaining from homosexual sex.

And whether or not Man has the right to tamper with human nature, Man has been doing so ever since creation (or evolution if you believe in that ;)... It begins with the choice of spouse, and goes on and on with how you feed your children, how you educate them, how you treat them, etc. Whether we realise it or not, humanity has been practicing eugenics for many millennia now, just by mere isolation and inbreeding. This is why we have races and the like. If I understand Biblical teachings (yes I have read the Bible, but I have not finished it), then Christians believe that EVERYTHING is divinely created. But humanity has tampered with many divinely-created things, even humans. It may be a controversial stance, but I believe that if we tamper in order to produce GOOD, then this justifies tampering. By extension, if parents think they are tampering to prevent their children from committing a sin then their tampering is justified. The hormone patch may be a controversial example, yet not many are worried about the education parents are giving their parents which may have a far more intense impact on the child.

As for genetic engineering, I'd have to disagree with you. Your statement implies that there is widespread support for genetic engineering. Don't misunderstand me, as a student of Biotechnology I am very much in favour of genetic engineering. However, the disdain of the public for GE is very widely documented. But your point is essentially sound; if we support GE, then why should we oppose something less invasive such as hormone therapy? As it turns out, hormone therapy is already used for pregnancies, and helps many, especially older women, have safe and complication-free pregnancies. Perhaps it is not the therapy, but the theological consequences (with respect to homosexuals) that causes many to oppose such a treatment?

Regarding parents' rights to their children's genome, I believe they should be allowed to intervene only when not doing so will cause a life-threatening disease or disability. Parents should not be allowed to modify and customise their child's genome to suit their will. The rationale behind this is that intervention in the case of the former would result in an overall benefit to society (think of the benefits to the healthcare system alone). Intervention in the case of the latter would result in a society with genetic disparity. We already complain about how the rich get richer, while the poor get poorer. How much severe would the gap in human society be if there would be a segment of "transhumans" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism) which would inevitably control the others?

Finally, I can sympathise with the Evangelical Christians. If I was a parent, it would be disappointing if my child was homosexual. But if the child was 'diagnosed' with homosexuality, that is if they had a gene that makes them more prone to homosexuality, I would do my best to educate him/her. The rest is up to God. Sometimes the Lord tests us, and all her requires of us is patience and our best intentions. It would be within my rights to teach my child my beliefs on homosexuality, and no one has the right to say otherwise unless it harms the child.
 

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From a religious point of view, does Man have the right or even the privilege of tampering with something eternally-touted as being divinely created? A passage in the Bible, I forget which, has G0d saying he knew the person while he was still in the womb. To me that's very clear that God is the developer and the mother just the carrier if you will.
I personally don't see how God is involved in the development of anyone's body or genes. I see it as the random combination of a mother's gamete and a father's gamete with no divine involvement - it is purely a biological function. The only thing God has control over, from a Christain's theological viewpoint, is the human soul.

Black~Enthusiasm said:
How can we be supportive of genetic engineering humans and then turn around and oppose this in the same time?
Most churches aren't against genetic engineering. If you can modify a human child to improve their standard of living - attacking diseases, making them stronger, smarter, etc, and other things of this sort. However, it is when you make a 'designer child' by making changes like hair color, gender, eye color, etc that it becomes sinful for most Christain denominations.

Black~Enthusiasm said:
Should parents seven be allowed to mess around with the genetics of their children?
Legally, I think a parent should be able to make any change that will either have no effect (gender, eye color, hair color, sexual attraction (from a secular viewpoint)) or a positive effect (disease, strength, etc), however nothing that will harm the child (adding diseases and so forth).

Black~Enthusiasm said:
If your kid is "diagnosed" with homosexuality, would you do something about it?
If it was a safe procedure, probably. If it involved any risk I wouldn't because it wouldn't change the view I would have of my child, the procedure would be for his/her benefit.

Black~Enthusiasm said:
And in my opinion, homosexuality being natural doesn't invalidate the religious argument that its a question of freewill, like the article suggested. The urge to sin may be genetic in origine, but to give in to it remain a question of free choice, thus it remain "punishable" by God.
I agree.

Black~Enthusiasm said:
Removing predisposition to homosexual behaviors before birth, isn't this close to genocide, in the litteral sense of the term (to kill the gene)?
Does that make it wrong? Just because the word genocide is in the phrase doesn't make it wrong. I support genocide against poverty, against war, and against the genes that cause Huntington's Disease.

The only thing I am worried about are the evolutionary consequences of beginning to tweak with the human genome, especially if it is done on a large scale.
 

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I disagree with any religion and person who believes homosexuality is a naturally occurring phenomenon and quickly condemns that act to hell. Why? Your religion preaches about caring and forgiveness but is so quick to cast people to hell by something that your god created. Basically forcing people to be heterosexual even thought their natural (god made nature) urges is towards males. That's dumb and hypocritical, both of which are typical of 99% of the religions of our world.
 

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"Basically forcing people to be heterosexual even thought their natural (god made nature)...."

Its not because its a natural urge that you have to give in. If you rape my dauther, I'll have a very natural urge to torture and kill you. But I'm expected not to give in.

Really, since when being natural equate being acceptable and good? Civilization could be described as a movement away from our natural self.
 

Lizardbreath

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"Basically forcing people to be heterosexual even thought their natural (god made nature)...."

Its not because its a natural urge that you have to give in. If you rape my dauther, I'll have a very natural urge to torture and kill you. But I'm expected not to give in.

Really, since when being natural equate being acceptable and good? Civilization could be described as a movement away from our natural self.

So they are supposed to stay non-gay even though they have a natural drive towards men? WTF? Why not just make that kind of person at all? God is so stupid.
 

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It's because heaven doesn't exist and neither does god.
 

Lizardbreath

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A choice to be weak and believe in something that isn't there or believe in yourself.

EDIT @B&E: That doesn't make sense at all. I can believe all I want that there is a higher power and just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. That is BS. I swear christians make up fallacies like that to protect their own religion.
 

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LB said:
So they are supposed to stay non-gay even though they have a natural drive towards men? WTF?
Original sin? People have urges to lie, cheat, kill, steal, hurt others, and the list goes on. What makes sexuality any different? People have free will and have urges to sin and those urges are supposed to be ignored to the best of one’s ability.

LB said:
Why not just make that kind of person at all?
I’d like you to show me proof that God is active in human reproduction. My claim for why there is homosexuality is as I stated earlier: “I personally don't see how God is involved in the development of anyone's body or genes. I see it as the random combination of a mother's gamete and a father's gamete with no divine involvement - it is purely a biological function. The only thing God has control over, from a Christain's theological viewpoint, is the human soul.”

LB said:
That doesn't make sense at all. I can believe all I want that there is a higher power and just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. That is BS. I swear christians make up fallacies like that to protect their own religion.
To clarify, I think he is saying that a lack of evidence is proof of nothing; it neither proves he exists nor does it prove he doesn’t exist. It is the view of agnostics.
 

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