Abortion

[Tempest Storm]

Yeppers, it's the dreaded abortion thread again.

So here are the main question:

Are you pro-choice, or pro life?

Are you in favor of legislation banning abortion?

In what cases do you support abortion (rape, incest, ect...)?

Your opinions, if any, on backalley abortions.

Are you in favor of birth control (diaphrams, condoms, birth control, ect...)?

Are you for or against the emergancy contraceptive (aka, the morning after pill)?

Let the bi-annual killing begin!

 

[c9h13no3]

Originally posted by Tempest Storm
1) Are you pro-choice, or pro life?

2) Are you in favor of legislation banning abortion?

3) In what cases do you support abortion (rape, incest, ect...)?

4) Your opinions, if any, on backalley abortions.

5) Are you in favor of birth control (diaphrams, condoms, birth control, ect...)?

6) Are you for or against the emergancy contraceptive (aka, the morning after pill)?

First off, I want to say "tsk tsk" for making an abortion thread. I predict lots of thoughtless (fruitless) debate. But here's my 2 cents.

1) Choice
2) No
3) Any case when the woman wants it, except for in the third tri-mester. Even if you've been raped. I consider it murder after 6 months of pregnancy. If you can't decide you want an abortion by then, you're screwed. Sorry.
4) They're bad.
5) Yes. Control away.
6) For.

 

[Steven22]

Pro-choice. Why should a woman have a baby thats a rapists' baby? (Did I say that right?) Just because she was unlucky enough to have been raped, now shes practically "stuck" with a child? What is she going to tell the child about her father?

Off topic: Sorry Tempest, but this topic is so regular even kids at school are starting to debate about it.

 

[Forged]

Anyone Agaisnt abortion needs to think a little, WE ARE KILLING A ****ING FETUS.

 

[Radium]

And what does this fetus represent? A person.

 

[Tempest Storm]

Originally posted by Radium
And what does this fetus represent? A person.

A person represents a person, mate. A fetus represents something that will become a fetus.

 

[c9h13no3]

Originally posted by Radium
And what does this fetus represent? A person.

A blob of cells is not a person. You kill millions of sperm every time you masterbate. The only difference between sperm and a zygote is another set of chromosomes. I don't really start considering it a human until it hits the third tri-mester.

 

[CelestialBadger]

It has to do with some sort of Christian belief I think. Something like the soul is bound to the fetus at the moment of conception...maybe...? I'm sure someone will correct me on this.

 

[Sogeking]

i have no clue celest, but i think that having an abortion just cuz u had premature sex or descided not to use protection deserve it. If someone was rapped(or would have had a cezarean wtvr), ok, u can have an abortion, its fine with me. But whats so wrong with having a baby!? All u have to do is sign adoption papers and voila! baby is no problem and u didnt have to scar your uterus doing it!

ok fine, its a right to have an abortion, its also a right to smoke ciggaurettes or cigars right?

 

[Tempest Storm]

Originally posted by CelestialBadger
It has to do with some sort of Christian belief I think. Something like the soul is bound to the fetus at the moment of conception...maybe...? I'm sure someone will correct me on this.

Naw, you pretty much hit it right on the head, mate.

 

[bamthedoc]

To answer the original questions...

1) Pro-Life, True-Choice (will explain)
2) Yes
3) Never (will explain)
4) Who isn't?
5) SOME
6) I, personally, don't like the idea (will explain)

I am pro-life, and, because of how I think, often call myself a "true-choicer". It's a difficult concept to understand because of the ignorance that people seem to have. Where is the choice in abortion? One person out of a litany! Where is the father's choice? The parents' choice (of the mother and father)? The, most importanlty of all, UNBORN CHILD'S? Sexual Intercourse (not including rape of any form) is a "democratic" process, so pregnancy should be also. If you don't want a child, use a condom or some form of protection that will prevent the sperm from uniting with the egg.

Am I in favor of legislature change? THE WOMEN WHO SUED THE GOVERNMENT TO LEGALIZE ABORTION WANT LEGELATION CHANGED! Gee, that's a twist! Those women didn't know what they were getting themselves (and the world) into. They hadn't had an abortion until sometime in the 1990s. Now, after experiencing that and going through a verily avoided subject, post-abortion stress disorder (or something to that effect...), they are trying to change the law once again. This time they are pro-life.

Okay, I said I do not condone abortion, period, but... I have to say that I can sympathize (sp?) with a rape victim. Incest... I'd, personally, hope for a miscarriage. "GOD's way of cleaning house." I, personally, believe that abortion actually makes "rape" less of a crime (to the rapist). I'm assuming here a male raped a woman (yes, women do rape men -- less publisized... A LOT). The guy is only getting a slap on the wrist and doesn't have to worry about any kind of "afterthought" punishment. Meh, I hate trying to explain the wierd idea I had about this... Tempest Storm or CelestialBadger might remember... I'm not going into it again!

I've commented on "birth-control", but I'll use this to go into "the morning after pill" too. The "morning after pill" prevents the egg from accepting sperm -- I think --, so you won't find any real arguement from me. Comdoms are ~98% effective, so they are a viable option. I've heard the packaging takes too long to open though. Or is that just a bad sitcom joke? Diaphrams... I'm afraind I don't know enough about them. Pills that "kill" the egg that's matured before the sperm gets there are okay, I guess. Spermicide, that's a decent solution. It just adds to the already acidic environments.



It does partially have to do with the fact that I, as a Christian, believe that, upon conception, a holy house for GOD is created. >>Yes, we believe our bodies to be temples or houses<<

 

[None293823]

I think abortion is good for those who don't want to have babies from child-abusers.This is worst of all and such a thing shouldn't happen.There are many abusers who want to satisfy their sexual needs.
Otherwise,you may have various reasons not to have a baby and this is the best method so far.Although I don't see andy other good reasons for abortion.

I'm for the emergancy contraceptive.They can prevent any of these cases .

 

[c9h13no3]

Originally posted by bamthedoc
The "morning after pill" prevents the egg from accepting sperm -- I think

Nah. Different ones work in different ways, but the general gist of it, is it forces a woman to have her period, which will keep a zygote from implanting.

And I find the bottom line to any real issue is it comes down to personal belief. If you believe that as soon as an egg and sperm unite, the soul is bound to it, then that's your belief. If you don't, then that's yours as well. The point I'm getting at, is everyone has different beliefs and you should not go and try to impress one belief on someone else. Hence why I am pro-choice. Even if I thought that the soul is bound to the egg as soon as it's fertilized, I wouldn't make laws outlawing abortion because that's not everyone's belief. And that's why this country is so great. Because we give people the choice to believe how they wish, without impressing any beliefs upon them with laws and such. I guess the moral of this post is, "If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one".

 

[IK_Honor]

Abortion is my eyes can go both ways.
Before 3 months, yes it is ok, because the fetus is not fully developed so it is not "alive" the heart and brain have not developed at all by 3 months, so you are not "killing" anythng yet.
After 3 months, when the fetus is alive, than yes, abortion is murder.
Birth controll should be allowed if the couple want it. The morning after pill should also be allowed if the couple want it.

 

[Tempest Storm]

Originally posted by bamthedoc
I am pro-life, and, because of how I think, often call myself a "true-choicer". It's a difficult concept to understand because of the ignorance that people seem to have. Where is the choice in abortion? One person out of a litany! Where is the father's choice? The parents' choice (of the mother and father)? The, most importanlty of all, UNBORN CHILD'S? Sexual Intercourse (not including rape of any form) is a "democratic" process, so pregnancy should be also. If you don't want a child, use a condom or some form of protection that will prevent the sperm from uniting with the egg.
-----
It does partially have to do with the fact that I, as a Christian, believe that, upon conception, a holy house for GOD is created. >>Yes, we believe our bodies to be temples or houses<<

Once 18, the parents have no say in the matter. And besides, what the hell do they have to do with anything? They're a third party, they're meaningless.

And many abortions are performed by girls who had unprotected sex by guys who wanted nothing more than another notch in the headpost. You think those kinda guys really want to be responsible for a kid? Not likely.

Unborn child? See, unlike you, I do not believe the soul is bound to the fetus at contraception. I do not believe the fetus is actually a living being until about 10 weeks after contraception, when the brain becomes fully developed. And that is unto the time that I support abortions. And modern science has not been able to prove when life really begins. So basicly, you are looking to outlaw something you feel wrong based mostly on a religion that I, and many others denounce. Whats more is that you have no evidence to back up your claims on when life begins. So basicly, you're just trying to force upon us your beliefs. Typical Christian...

I mean really, what makes your beliefs any more right than mine? What makes your morals any more right than mine. I do not an abortion performed early enough is murder, and you can not prove to me that it is. So the bottom line is, your trying to limit ppl's freedoms based solely on your beliefs that are grounded in no scientific evidence, while I and the other pro choicers here are trying to keep as many of our freedoms from being taken by the "Moral Police".

Am I in favor of legislature change? THE WOMEN WHO SUED THE GOVERNMENT TO LEGALIZE ABORTION WANT LEGELATION CHANGED! Gee, that's a twist! Those women didn't know what they were getting themselves (and the world) into. They hadn't had an abortion until sometime in the 1990s. Now, after experiencing that and going through a verily avoided subject, post-abortion stress disorder (or something to that effect...), they are trying to change the law once again. This time they are pro-life.

So, just because those chicks changed their mind means that we should all change our mind? Yea, thats it, lets ban something just because a very small minority wants it banned!

And yes, I am aware of the potiental mental and physical side affects of an abortion, and I believe that women should be made fully aware of these risks beforehand. And to my understanding, they are. Remember, pro choice doesn't mean pro abortion.

Okay, I said I do not condone abortion, period, but... I have to say that I can sympathize (sp?) with a rape victim. Incest... I'd, personally, hope for a miscarriage. "GOD's way of cleaning house." I, personally, believe that abortion actually makes "rape" less of a crime (to the rapist). I'm assuming here a male raped a woman (yes, women do rape men -- less publisized... A LOT). The guy is only getting a slap on the wrist and doesn't have to worry about any kind of "afterthought" punishment. Meh, I hate trying to explain the wierd idea I had about this... Tempest Storm or CelestialBadger might remember... I'm not going into it again!

"God's way of cleaning house"? Yea.... You know very few of incest pregnancy cases end in miscarage? So, aparently God doesn't keep up with his house.

Thats lovely. Force the woman to suffer and have a child that reminds her of the worst moment of her life, just to make the rapist suffer? Sympathy my ass. And, how does aborting the child make a rape case less of a crime? Can you show me any sites that say when the woman aborts te pregancy that the rapist gets a lesser sentance? Maybe I can see where you're coming from if that were true, but, I have never heard of that ever happening.

 

[bamthedoc]

I never did say I wouldn't allow the abortion, now did I ?

I was defining "miscarage". I heard that said before.

Now onto other parts...

Once 18, the parents have no say in the matter. And besides, what the hell do they have to do with anything? They're a third party, they're meaningless.

I was primarily refering to the parents of "underage" individuals.

And many abortions are performed by girls who had unprotected sex by guys who wanted nothing more than another notch in the headpost. You think those kinda guys really want to be responsible for a kid? Not likely.

This wasn't a problem before the legalization of abortion, FYI. Also, this was even less of a problem before the economisist view of history and moral decay that ensued. They guys are likely not responsible, but, without culpibility, who is?

Unborn child? See, unlike you, I do not believe the soul is bound to the fetus at contraception. I do not believe the fetus is actually a living being until about 10 weeks after contraception, when the brain becomes fully developed. And that is unto the time that I support abortions. And modern science has not been able to prove when life really begins. So basicly, you are looking to outlaw something you feel wrong based mostly on a religion that I, and many others denounce. Whats more is that you have no evidence to back up your claims on when life begins. So basicly, you're just trying to force upon us your beliefs. Typical Christian...

Putting words in my mouth. So typical.
Just as you said I cannot prove when life begins, neither can you. You can stop forcing your beliefs on others (more rampant as well).

So, just because those chicks changed their mind means that we should all change our mind? Yea, thats it, lets ban something just because a very small minority wants it banned! :rolleyes

Minority? You haven't read recent statistics. Actually, both sides might be considered "minority" as they are both less than 50%. I think it's something like 15 - 25% undecided, 40+% against, and 40-% for. But the Supreme Court has to decide, and it's 2 - 7 there (against - for).

And yes, I am aware of the potiental mental and physical side affects of an abortion, and I believe that women should be made fully aware of these risks beforehand. And to my understanding, they are. Remember, pro choice doesn't mean pro abortion.

That's different from what some testimonials I've heard and read are. Pro-Choice policy tend to be to dispell as many fact as possible and leave its followers in ignorance.

Thats lovely. Force the woman to suffer and have a child that reminds her of the worst moment of her life, just to make the rapist suffer? Sympathy my ass. And, how does aborting the child make a rape case less of a crime? Can you show me any sites that say when the woman aborts te pregancy that the rapist gets a lesser sentance? Maybe I can see where you're coming from if that were true, but, I have never heard of that ever happening.

Wow... You taking what I said out of context?! Okay, will explain.
The sentance isn't lowered; the culpibility is.

 

[Zan_Toast]

abortion is wrong!!!!
.
.
.
abortion:shoot

 

[Tempest Storm]

Originally posted by bamthedoc
This wasn't a problem before the legalization of abortion, FYI. Also, this was even less of a problem before the economisist view of history and moral decay that ensued. They guys are likely not responsible, but, without culpibility, who is?

Abortions have been going on for centuries. Remember, back alley abortion? Maybe it wasn't as "popular" as it is today, but thats because the girls were forced to have the child and live the rest of their childhood in shame with little responsibility held for the guy.

Putting words in my mouth. So typical.
Just as you said I cannot prove when life begins, neither can you. You can stop forcing your beliefs on others (more rampant as well).

How am I forcing anything on you or anyone else? Am I forcing you ro your g/f to get an abortion? Am i trying to make it so that ppl have to have an abortion? No. You said it yourself, that you would support legislation outlawing abortion. I am just trying to protect the woman's right to choose, you are trying to limit that right. So tell me how I am forcing anything on you or anyone else. And please tell, what did that "more rampant as well" line mean?

And btw, I'm not trying to directly attack you, or attack your beliefs. But I get very defencive when someone tries to force their beliefs onto me, which in my eyes is what your were doing.

Minority? You haven't read recent statistics. Actually, both sides might be considered "minority" as they are both less than 50%. I think it's something like 15 - 25% undecided, 40+% against, and 40-% for. But the Supreme Court has to decide, and it's 2 - 7 there (against - for).

I was refering to those woman you mentioned when I said minority.

Personally I don't care if the majority was against it. Just because the majority is for something doesn't make it right. Just because the majority thinks the same way doesn't mean the majority knows whats best for me, or anyone else. And just because the majority feels the same way about something doesn't give them the right to force their morals and beliefs on anyone else.

That's different from what some testimonials I've heard and read are. Pro-Choice policy tend to be to dispell as many fact as possible and leave its followers in ignorance.

Not that I doupt you, but care to give me some links, I would like to read this policy for myself. And if in fact you are telling the truth, then I am against that. I believe that the clinics and doctors have the responsibility to make sure that their patients are very well informed of the risk and gains of the procedure.

Wow... You taking what I said out of context?! Okay, will explain.
The sentance isn't lowered; the culpibility is.

How?! He still raped the girl. He still forced her to have unconsensual sex by force, either with his greater strength or with a weapon. There is still the DNA and eye witness testimony to prove he did it. Just because the woman didn't get pregnant or aborted the pregnancy, that doesn't make the rapist any less guilty or culpable of the crime.

 

[Tempest Storm]

Originally posted by Zan_Toast
abortion is wrong!!!!
.
.
.
abortion:shoot

Wanna try and be just a little bit more intelligent in your posts.

Sorry for the double post.

 

[bamthedoc]

Meh, double post in this case is fine.

Abortions have been going on for centuries. Remember, back alley abortion? Maybe it wasn't as "popular" as it is today, but thats because the girls were forced to have the child and live the rest of their childhood in shame with little responsibility held for the guy.

Women also tend to get infections that lead to death or infertility from such procedures.

I was refering to those woman you mentioned when I said minority.

Ah, I see.

Personally I don't care if the majority was against it. Just because the majority is for something doesn't make it right. Just because the majority thinks the same way doesn't mean the majority knows whats best for me, or anyone else. And just because the majority feels the same way about something doesn't give them the right to force their morals and beliefs on anyone else.

To tell the truth... That statement felt more like a roller-coaster ride than an arguement... I think I can still reply, however.
I was using a "generic you" as you used against "me". Those who are "pro-choice" are forcing upon the educational system, and therefore me and my future children, morals I do not agree with. It makes it harder to teach children at home when peers are made to look so much stronger. Women aren't being force to have an abortion, but it often can appear that abortions are the only choice available. This is not the case. There are organizations that will take the baby for you and council you. "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" run by Christians are actually becoming quite popular, thankfully. Women can walk into them and be given the full spectra of options and the complications from abortion. These Centers have families available to adopt, as well. The pregnant woman can meet the family before giving the child up. It's called giving a lot more choices and better options, in the end. A lot of women who have gone to these Centers find themselves happier in the end, and this includes some prior abortion "victims".

Not that I doupt you, but care to give me some links, I would like to read this policy for myself. And if in fact you are telling the truth, then I am against that. I believe that the clinics and doctors have the responsibility to make sure that their patients are very well informed of the risk and gains of the procedure.

Would you mind if the best resource I have is from Crisis Pregnancy Centers?

How?! He still raped the girl. He still forced her to have unconsensual sex by force, either with his greater strength or with a weapon. There is still the DNA and eye witness testimony to prove he did it. Just because the woman didn't get pregnant or aborted the pregnancy, that doesn't make the rapist any less guilty or culpable of the crime.

Rape is about power. He still holds power, and he can see it even more obvious in abortion. The rapist doesn't feel guilt unless he feels a loss of power.